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Author Topic: Eucharistic Miracle  (Read 1666 times)

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Offline poche

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Eucharistic Miracle
« on: December 21, 2019, 02:45:19 AM »
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  • Trinity Communications used to publish printed books, and we also helped Bob and Penny Lord of Journeys of Faith to prepare and print their first of two books surveying Eucharistic miracles throughout history, which was entitled This is My Body, This is My Blood. But all of this was before the Buenos Aires miracle, and I have not kept up with developments since that time.
    Many readers will doubtless already know about the 1996 miracle. There is quite a bit of information about it on the Internet. I also notice that another possible miracle was claimed in Buenos Aires in 2017, but I haven’t looked into it closely. In contrast, there has been a thorough study of the 1996 miracle, and two aspects of it immediately caught my attention. The first is merely tangential, a matter of current interest: The future Pope Francis initiated the investigation. The second is more significant: According to the report I received, it has been scientifically established that the heart tissue from the Buenos Aires miracle belongs to the same person as the flesh and blood at Lanciano.
    Here, then, is what took place in the parish of Santa Maria y Caballito Almagro, in the commercial district of Buenos Aires:
    On August 18, 1996, Fr. Alejandro Pezet had just finished distributing Communion when a woman told him there was a discarded host in the back of the Church. Fr. Pezet recovered the host, placed it in a container of water, and placed the container in the tabernacle. On August 20th, he discovered that this host appeared bloody, so he informed the auxiliary bishop, Jorge Bergoglio.
    Bishop Bergoglio decided to have the host photographed. The photographs, taken on September 6th, show that the host had grown in size and had the appearance of a piece of bloody flesh. After three years, when there was no decomposition of this apparent flesh, Bishop Bergoglio decided to have it scientifically analyzed. The testing began in October of 1999.
    In 2005, Dr. Frederic Zugibe, a cardiologist and forensic pathologist, announced his findings:
    Quote
    The analyzed material is a fragment of the heart muscle found in the wall of the left ventricle, close to the valves. This muscle is responsible for the contraction of the heart. The left cardiac ventricle pumps blood to all parts of the body. The heart muscle is in an inflamed state and contains a large number of white blood cells. This indicates that the heart was alive at the time the sample was taken. I affirm that the heart was alive, since white blood cells die outside a living organism; they require a living organism to sustain them. Thus, their presence indicates that the heart was alive when the sample was taken. What is more, these white blood cells had penetrated the tissue, which further indicated that the heart had been under severe stress, as if the owner had been beaten severely about the chest.
    The tests were witnessed, but Dr. Zugibe did not know the origin of the sample. After he submitted his findings, he was told that the sample was taken from tissue found in 1996. Zugibe responded:
    Quote
    You have to explain one thing to me: If this sample came from a dead person, how could it be that while I was examining it, the cells of the sample were moving and pulsating? If the heart came from someone who died in 1996, how could it still be alive?
    It was only at this point that Zugibe learned that the sample came from a consecrated host. He exclaimed: “This will remain an inexplicable mystery to science—a mystery totally beyond her competence.”

    Note that similar statements have been made about the liquefied blood in the regularly recurring miracle at Lanciano. That blood has been clinically determined to react in tests the same way as does the blood in living persons. An extensive study of the Lanciano material was released in 1976, after being confirmed by a scientific commission appointed by the աօʀʟd ɦɛaʟtɦ օʀɢaռiʐatɨօռ.
    Since then, several experts have compared the lab reports relating to the samples from both Buenos Aires and Lanciano, and have determined that the two samples came from the same person. We also know that the blood type in both cases is the same as that of the blood which soaked into the Shroud of Turin.

    https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/eucharistic-miracle-when-bergoglio-was-auxiliary-bishop/


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #1 on: December 21, 2019, 06:54:00 AM »
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  • Matthew 24:23-25

    Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him.  For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #2 on: December 21, 2019, 09:47:46 AM »
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  • If both the Argentina and Lanciano eucharistic miracles could be proven to have the same DNA, and if both miracles had the same blood type as the dried blood on the Shroud of Turin, this would prove that the Novus Ordo --- or at least the particular Novus Ordo Mass in which the Argentina miracle occurred --- is valid.  Even Archbishop Lefebvre admitted that the NO is a "valid sacrilege" (his words, not mine).  It would be interesting to know whether the priest who consecrated the Eucharist in the Argentina miracle was ordained according to the traditional rite or the new rite.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #3 on: December 21, 2019, 11:32:48 AM »
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  • Catholics do not do theology from miracles.  We test miracles with Catholic theology.  Satan can work "miracles" too ... in the sense that he is capable of simulating them.  God does not give His blessing to the Novus Ordo abomination.  This is having precisely the effect on Traditional Catholics that the devil intends.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #4 on: December 21, 2019, 12:05:04 PM »
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  • It makes perfect sense that Hod would perform a Eucharistic miracle in the Novus Ordo, not to bless/endorse the rite, but to reaffirm the dogma of transubstantiation which that rite attacks (same as it makes perfect sense there are no Eucharistic miracles at the TLM, where affirmation in the belief in transubstantiation is explicit).

    There also exists a loose analogy to Marian apparitions, which were few during the first 1500 years of the Church:

    When it was on solid footing, warnings were not needed, but after the Protestant rebellion, they became more numerous.

    God sends help to the sick, not the healthy who have no need of it.

    I really don’t know why this notion that if God performs a Eucharistic miracle, it can only be interpreted as an endorsement of the Novus Ordo.  Whomever that false interpretation resonates with does not understand God’s modus operandi.

    As for the effect such Novus Ordo miracles would have on Catholics, it would be exactly the OPPOSITE of that desired by the devil:

    To fortify faith In transubstantiation which the devil wanted to kill with the rite.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #5 on: December 21, 2019, 01:10:23 PM »
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  • My friend Julian told me his mom had a vision of the face of the devil while looking at a Novus Ordo monstrance. So perhaps the Novus Ordo Eucharist is the body and blood of the devil. I do tend to think it is Jesus though, despite the claims of sedevacantists and my friend's mother's vision and I visit Jesus in the Novus Ordo Churches near my house (even though for Mass I take the subway to go to the SSPX mission).
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #6 on: December 21, 2019, 01:17:39 PM »
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  • Catholics do not do theology from miracles.  We test miracles with Catholic theology.  Satan can work "miracles" too ... in the sense that he is capable of simulating them.  God does not give His blessing to the Novus Ordo abomination.  This is having precisely the effect on Traditional Catholics that the devil intends.
    Exactly!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #7 on: December 21, 2019, 01:25:56 PM »
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  • It makes perfect sense that Hod would perform a Eucharistic miracle in the Novus Ordo, not to bless/endorse the rite, but to reaffirm the dogma of transubstantiation which that rite attacks (same as it makes perfect sense there are no Eucharistic miracles at the TLM, where affirmation in the belief in transubstantiation is explicit).
    This is ridiculous! Of course it would simultaneously confirm the validity of the NO. BTW: If the NO is valid why don’t you and all those who believe likewise, simply go to your local NO parish and save yourself the trouble. Give me a break.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #8 on: December 21, 2019, 01:44:08 PM »
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  • This is ridiculous! Of course it would simultaneously confirm the validity of the NO. BTW: If the NO is valid why don’t you and all those who believe likewise, simply go to your local NO parish and save yourself the trouble. Give me a break.

    Typical made-up sedevacantist logic.

    No theology to back it up, just exclamation marks and emotive declarations.

    A Eucharistic miracle is already present at every valid NOM in the form of transubstantiation.

    But even if every NOM were invalid, could you explain -theologically- why it would be beyond the power or will of God to create such a miracle?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #9 on: December 21, 2019, 02:21:25 PM »
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  • Typical made-up sedevacantist logic.

    No theology to back it up, just exclamation marks and emotive declarations.

    A Eucharistic miracle is already present at every valid NOM in the form of transubstantiation.

    But even if every NOM were invalid, could you explain -theologically- why it would be beyond the power or will of God to create such a miracle?
    Logic is logic. If the NO came from the Church it is good and holy and it is valid. I believe you claim it is sometimes valid, but not necessarily good and holy? The Church can’t do that. If you claim it is valid, good and holy, why don’t you attend? Why do you fight your church? Why do you fight your diocesan bishop? Why don’t you obey your pope? Sadly, it is you who is illogical. By the way, by what authority do you claim to make those decisions on the validity of a sacrament in your church ? You don’t claim to be part of the magisterium, do you?

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #10 on: December 21, 2019, 03:00:58 PM »
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  • Logic is logic. If the NO came from the Church it is good and holy and it is valid. I believe you claim it is sometimes valid, but not necessarily good and holy? The Church can’t do that. If you claim it is valid, good and holy, why don’t you attend? Why do you fight your church? Why do you fight your diocesan bishop? Why don’t you obey your pope? Sadly, it is you who is illogical. By the way, by what authority do you claim to make those decisions on the validity of a sacrament in your church ? You don’t claim to be part of the magisterium, do you?
    I think you made a mistake. You say:
    #1: "I believe you claim it is sometimes valid, but not necessarily good and holy?"

    Which is probably a more accurate statement of his (or the R&R) claim. But then you make a contradictory claim:

    #2: "'If you claim it is valid, good and holy, why don’t you attend?"

    This statement is not an accurate representation of the R&R position as the first one is, and thus the answer to #2 would be "I do not claim it is valid, good and holy".

    I do not know how long you have been a sedevacantist, but the more experienced ones would know that the R&R position does not hold #2, as the position is closer to #1 with the qualification of sometimes valid, but always illicit and thus not good. So, the debate from a sedevacantist point of view should be "Would God allow a true pope to deceive the faithful to attend an illicit Mass"
    Well, I hope you and your family have a blessed Christmas.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #11 on: December 21, 2019, 03:54:31 PM »
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  • It makes perfect sense that Hod would perform a Eucharistic miracle in the Novus Ordo, ...

    No, Sean, it doesn't.  God knows that the takeaway from 99% of the people who find out about the alleged miracle would be to construe it as a divine endorsement of the Novus Ordo Mass.

    Has God ever used a prostitute or serial adulterer as an instrument for a private revelation?  No, in fact, one of the FIRST things that Church examines in any reports of visionary activity is the person of the visionary.  Would God use a flaming heretic as a visionary?  No, because this could be construed as an endorsement of her heresy.  Consequently, if the Church finds that a visionary is a heretic or is given to vices, the immediate reaction is:  "Condemned."

    So your position is not in keeping with the mind of the Church where it comes to private revelation and miracles and other such phenomena.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #12 on: December 21, 2019, 04:01:23 PM »
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  • No, Sean, it doesn't.  God knows that the takeaway from 99% of the people who find out about the alleged miracle would be to construe it as a divine endorsement of the Novus Ordo Mass.

    Has God ever used a prostitute or serial adulterer as an instrument for a private revelation?  No, in fact, one of the FIRST things that Church examines in any reports of visionary activity is the person of the visionary.  Would God use a flaming heretic as a visionary?  No, because this could be construed as an endorsement of her heresy.  Consequently, if the Church finds that a visionary is a heretic or is given to vices, the immediate reaction is:  "Condemned."

    So your position is not in keeping with the mind of the Church where it comes to private revelation and miracles and other such phenomena.

    Your premise is gratuitos, unfounded, and contradicted by the actual effect of these reported miracles:

    The attendees, witnesses, and faithful who become aware of the claims and assent to them do NOT take away from the "miracles" a belief in the holiness of the Novus Ordo, but a belief in the Real Presence and transubstantiation.

    None of them come away from these events saying to themseleves, "Wow is that NOM holy!!!"

    Instead, they come away from them saying, "God is there!"
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #13 on: December 21, 2019, 04:18:30 PM »
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  • Your premise is gratuitos, unfounded, and contradicted by the actual effect of these reported miracles:

    The attendees, witnesses, and faithful who become aware of the claims and assent to them do NOT take away from the "miracles" a belief in the holiness of the Novus Ordo, but a belief in the Real Presence and transubstantiation.

    None of them come away from these events saying to themseleves, "Wow is that NOM holy!!!"

    Instead, they come away from them saying, "God is there!"

    As with so many matters theological, you are wrong, Sean.  You do nothing but emote and shoot from the hip.  Never would the Church approve a private revelation purportedly given to a heretic, since the Church knows that God would not work a miracle that could be construed as an endorsement of their heresy.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #14 on: December 21, 2019, 04:54:49 PM »
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  • Catholics do not do theology from miracles.  We test miracles with Catholic theology.  Satan can work "miracles" too ... in the sense that he is capable of simulating them.  God does not give His blessing to the Novus Ordo abomination.  This is having precisely the effect on Traditional Catholics that the devil intends.


    It is so very easy to claim a miracle occurred.

    In this case, there needs to close scrutiny of the evidence and verification of the credentials of the all involved (doctors, scientists and priests) and the equipment used to make the analysis of the Host.

    If Novus ordo missae words are used for the Consecration, spoken by an invalidly ordained priest, how could he confect the Sacrament?

    Sean will tell us "some" grace is comes from the Novus ordo missae, but he's knows, he's just blowing smoke.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi