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Author Topic: Eucharistic Miracle  (Read 1669 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Eucharistic Miracle
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2019, 04:57:32 PM »
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  • As with so many matters theological, you are wrong, Sean.  You do nothing but emote and shoot from the hip.  Never would the Church approve a private revelation purportedly given to a heretic, since the Church knows that God would not work a miracle that could be construed as an endorsement of their heresy.

    Construed?

    Nobody but sedes and Pfeifferites/Hewkonians would so construe, such as you here do.

    By the way, I notice you are projecting here (ie., attributing to your adversary your own failings): I haven’t noticed any theological argumentation in your gratuitous conjectures.

    On the contrary, I presented a theological justification for my position.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #16 on: December 21, 2019, 05:04:51 PM »
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  • It is so very easy to claim a miracle occurred.

    In this case, there needs to close scrutiny of the evidence and verification of the credentials of the all involved (doctors, scientists and priests) and the equipment used to make the analysis of the Host.

    If Novus ordo missae words are used for the Consecration, spoken by an invalidly ordained priest, how could he confect the Sacrament?

    Sean will tell us "some" grace is comes from the Novus ordo missae, but he's knows, he's just blowing smoke.

    Another a-theological conjecture.

    Whether or not these particular “miracles” are authentic or not isn’t really the issue for you or Lad.

    What you are really objecting to is even the mere possibility that they could be authentic.
    Whatever homemade arguments you cook up come a priori to any particular miracle:

    To your minds they MUST be false, and we can come up with the reasons why after the fact.

    But whatever they will be, they will not be theological.  They will just be the inventions of inept commentators.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #17 on: December 21, 2019, 05:46:22 PM »
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  • Let's be fair about this, Sean.  If new-rome got rid of the devil's advocate for canonizations, we can certainly assume the devil's advocate for miracles doesn't exist, or is highly motivated for a "positive" outcome.  On this basis alone, any "miracles" are highly suspicious.  Too much money involved in tourism for new-rome to be impartial.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #18 on: December 21, 2019, 07:38:32 PM »
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  • Another a-theological conjecture.

    Right, it's one conjecture against another ... which boils down to "this proves absolutely nothing."  You would pretend that it proves that the NOM is valid but not that it's good.  Someone else might argue that this proves that the NOM is both valid and acceptable to God.  Church's attitude towards miracles has always been one of skepticism.  There's always the possibility of fraud ... either of human or of diabolical origin.  If you don't think that the devil can pull off a fake miracle, then next you'll tell me that David Copperfield's cause for canonization should be opened because he made an airplane disappear.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #19 on: December 21, 2019, 07:39:21 PM »
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  • Ah, yes, this day Sean and poche have become allies and the best of friends.  poche regularly spams an article on CI about this purported miracle.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #20 on: December 21, 2019, 08:37:14 PM »
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  • One of my favorite miracles confirming the Novus ordo cult...



    Is when a "St." John XXIII was found face down in his casket.


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #21 on: December 21, 2019, 08:39:49 PM »
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  • If both the Argentina and Lanciano eucharistic miracles could be proven to have the same DNA, and if both miracles had the same blood type as the dried blood on the Shroud of Turin, this would prove that the Novus Ordo --- or at least the particular Novus Ordo Mass in which the Argentina miracle occurred --- is valid.  Even Archbishop Lefebvre admitted that the NO is a "valid sacrilege" (his words, not mine).  It would be interesting to know whether the priest who consecrated the Eucharist in the Argentina miracle was ordained according to the traditional rite or the new rite.
    Validity.  Not goodness, not holiness, just validity.  Validity of both the Novus Ordo and, if the priest who confected it was ordained in the new rite, validity of that rite as well.  That's all I was talking about. 

    Offline poche

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #22 on: December 21, 2019, 11:15:46 PM »
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  • If both the Argentina and Lanciano eucharistic miracles could be proven to have the same DNA, and if both miracles had the same blood type as the dried blood on the Shroud of Turin, this would prove that the Novus Ordo --- or at least the particular Novus Ordo Mass in which the Argentina miracle occurred --- is valid.  Even Archbishop Lefebvre admitted that the NO is a "valid sacrilege" (his words, not mine).  It would be interesting to know whether the priest who consecrated the Eucharist in the Argentina miracle was ordained according to the traditional rite or the new rite.
    Very likely he was ordained in the new rite by a bishop who was consecrated according to the new rite.


    Offline poche

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #23 on: December 21, 2019, 11:28:23 PM »
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  • No, Sean, it doesn't.  God knows that the takeaway from 99% of the people who find out about the alleged miracle would be to construe it as a divine endorsement of the Novus Ordo Mass.

    Has God ever used a prostitute or serial adulterer as an instrument for a private revelation?  No, in fact, one of the FIRST things that Church examines in any reports of visionary activity is the person of the visionary.  Would God use a flaming heretic as a visionary?  No, because this could be construed as an endorsement of her heresy.  Consequently, if the Church finds that a visionary is a heretic or is given to vices, the immediate reaction is:  "Condemned."

    So your position is not in keeping with the mind of the Church where it comes to private revelation and miracles and other such phenomena.
    God did use a prostitute as an instrument of our salvation when Rahab hid the spies in Jericho and helped them to escape. Jesus also praised a prostitute who washed his feet. He said "10 Sciens autem Iesus ait illis: “ Quid molesti estis mulieri? Opus enim bonum operata est in me;
    11 nam semper pauperes habetis vobiscuм, me autem non semper habetis.
    12 Mittens enim haec unguentum hoc supra corpus meum, ad sepeliendum me fecit.
    13 Amen dico vobis: Ubicuмque praedicatum fuerit hoc evangelium in toto mundo, dicetur et quod haec fecit in memoriam eius ”." Which in English means,
    "10 But Jesus noticed this and said, 'Why are you upsetting the woman? What she has done for me is indeed a good work!
    11 You have the poor with you always, but you will not always have me.
    12 When she poured this ointment on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.
    13 In truth I tell you, wherever in all the world this gospel is proclaimed, what she has done will be told as well, in remembrance of her.'"

    Matthew26:10-13

    Offline poche

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #24 on: December 21, 2019, 11:37:01 PM »
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  • As with so many matters theological, you are wrong, Sean.  You do nothing but emote and shoot from the hip.  Never would the Church approve a private revelation purportedly given to a heretic, since the Church knows that God would not work a miracle that could be construed as an endorsement of their heresy.
    The Church recognizes the apparitions of Our Lady at Zeitun. The first person to see her was a Muslim. I don't think she did that to affirm the Islamic heresy.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #25 on: December 21, 2019, 11:38:02 PM »
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  • It is so very easy to claim a miracle occurred.

    In this case, there needs to close scrutiny of the evidence and verification of the credentials of the all involved (doctors, scientists and priests) and the equipment used to make the analysis of the Host.

    If Novus ordo missae words are used for the Consecration, spoken by an invalidly ordained priest, how could he confect the Sacrament?

    Sean will tell us "some" grace is comes from the Novus ordo missae, but he's knows, he's just blowing smoke.
    Could it be that the Novus Ordo is not invalid? Mgr. Lefebvre recognized its validity.


    Offline poche

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #26 on: December 21, 2019, 11:42:29 PM »
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  • Ah, yes, this day Sean and poche have become allies and the best of friends.  poche regularly spams an article on CI about this purported miracle.
    I posted this because I want to promote belief in the real presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #27 on: December 21, 2019, 11:47:19 PM »
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  • Validity.  Not goodness, not holiness, just validity.  Validity of both the Novus Ordo and, if the priest who confected it was ordained in the new rite, validity of that rite as well.  That's all I was talking about.
    Once in during the time of St Teresa of Avila there was a priest who was having an affair with a particular woman. (Sometimes I wonder where was the bishop?) Jesus appeared to St Teresa and said that because of His great love for her He willingly allowed himself to be held and to pass through the hands of this enemy of His so that He could be with her.
    This is the great love that Jesus has for us. Many times he will pass through the hands of some really crazy people so that He can be with us.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #28 on: December 22, 2019, 10:35:19 AM »
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  • It makes perfect sense that Hod would perform a Eucharistic miracle in the Novus Ordo, not to bless/endorse the rite, but to reaffirm the dogma of transubstantiation which that rite attacks (same as it makes perfect sense there are no Eucharistic miracles at the TLM, where affirmation in the belief in transubstantiation is explicit).

    There also exists a loose analogy to Marian apparitions, which were few during the first 1500 years of the Church:

    When it was on solid footing, warnings were not needed, but after the Protestant rebellion, they became more numerous.

    God sends help to the sick, not the healthy who have no need of it.

    I really don’t know why this notion that if God performs a Eucharistic miracle, it can only be interpreted as an endorsement of the Novus Ordo.  Whomever that false interpretation resonates with does not understand God’s modus operandi.

    As for the effect such Novus Ordo miracles would have on Catholics, it would be exactly the OPPOSITE of that desired by the devil:

    To fortify faith In transubstantiation which the devil wanted to kill with the rite.
    Would you feel the same way if there was a "miracle" in the schismatic, Orthodox Church?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eucharistic Miracle
    « Reply #29 on: December 22, 2019, 10:39:19 AM »
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  • I posted this because I want to promote belief in the real presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
    Riiiiight.  As if anyone here needs encouragement in believing in the Real Presence.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)