Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Ephesians 1: "predestinated"  (Read 482016 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Mark 79

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12994
  • Reputation: +8544/-1612
  • Gender: Male
Ephesians 1: "predestinated"
« on: September 23, 2025, 11:24:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Can anyone comment knowledgeably about "predestinated" as it appears in Ephesians 1?

    https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=56&ch=1&l=1-20#x

     1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, to all the saints who are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus  2 Grace be to you, and peace from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ  3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ  4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity  5 Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will
    [3] "In heavenly places": or, in heavenly things. In coelestibus.
     6 Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us in his beloved son  7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace  8 Which hath superabounded in us in all wisdom and prudence  9 That he might make known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in him  10 In the dispensation of the fulness of times, to re-establish all things in Christ, that are in heaven and on earth, in him
     11 In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will  12 That we may be unto the praise of his glory, we who before hoped in Christ  13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation;) in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise  14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory  15 Wherefore I also, hearing of your faith that is in the Lord Jesus, and of your love towards all the saints
    [14] "Acquisition": that is, a purchased possession.
     16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making commemoration of you in my prayers  17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and of revelation, in the knowledge of him  18 The eyes of your heart enlightened, that you may know what the hope is of the glory of his inheritance in the saints  19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power towards us, who believe according to the operation of the might of his power  20 Which he wrought in Christ, raising him up from the dead, and setting him on his right hand in the heavenly places  [Ephesians 1:1-20]


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14857
    • Reputation: +6150/-916
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ephesians 1: "predestinated"
    « Reply #1 on: September 24, 2025, 05:28:55 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I attached the chapter from Who Shall Ascend? on predestination where imo, he beautifully explains Ephesians chapter 1.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12994
    • Reputation: +8544/-1612
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ephesians 1: "predestinated"
    « Reply #2 on: September 24, 2025, 10:59:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you. I will read it after work today.

    Offline Mat183

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 252
    • Reputation: +107/-26
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ephesians 1: "predestinated"
    « Reply #3 on: September 24, 2025, 11:14:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Part One — Chapter Five 203
    [Here he says again that these Gentiles, before their conversion,
    had no hope of salvation. Why, then, do Liberals say
    otherwise?]
    G.
    Predestination and Divine Election
    The joy of the Early Church was not in the delusion that their
    salvation was an accomplished fact, the error of modern Evangelicals
    (and, apparently, Conciliar Catholics), but that they were in "the way
    of salvation,"” whereas those outside the communion of the faithful
    were not. In what exactly were the Christians rejoicing? In the fact
    that they had received the "adoption of sons of God." (Gal. 4:5). This
    is most beautifully expressed by St. Paul to the Ephesians. We remind
    you again: Read these words as addressed to Catholics, converts to
    the Catholic Church, whose relatives and friends thought they had
    been seduced into an outlandish Jєωιѕн cult, who did their best to
    bring them back to their senses. (We are aware that we have
    considered these verses above; your attention here is invited to verses
    which bear witness to the Doctrine of Predestination, which must be
    seen as subsidiary to the Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation.)
    Ephes. 1:3 — Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
    Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in
    heavenly places, in Christ:
    4 — As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,
    that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity.
    5 — Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children
    through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose
    of his will:
    6 — Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath
    graced us in his beloved son.
    7 — In whom we have redemption through his blood, the
    remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace,
    8 — Which hath superabounded in us in all wisdom and
    prudence,
    9 — That he might make known unto us the mystery of his
    will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed
    in him.
    204 Who Shall Ascend?
    10 — In the dispensation of the fulness of times, to reestablish
    all things in Christ that are in heaven and on earth,
    in him.
    From these words we may draw the following conclusions:
    1. With respect to the salvation of souls, we must recognize that
    all is achieved by divine initiative. We have italicized the verbs which
    describe the actions of God on our behalf.
    2. Nothing could be more obvious than that St. Paul is exulting
    over the fact that the Almighty has selected certain ones out of the
    host of humanity for the "adoption of children."
    3. St. Paul’s realization is of "the great mystery," that whereas
    in the Old Testament NO ONE could attain Heaven, now, "in these
    days," "in the fulness of time," certain persons are able to do so, not
    only from among the Jews, but from among the Gentiles also. It is this
    fact that makes the age "the fulness of time."
    4. Reflexively, we react by saying: But what about the rest?
    How is it just of God to choose some and to reject others? There can
    be but one answer to such a question, though admittedly it does not
    satisfy us, for it is not fully comprehensible, not, that is, as comprehensible
    as we would like. The answer is that those have been
    chosen, who were foreknown to accept their election. If others are
    rejected, it is because quite freely they reject the grace which would
    be for their peace.
    5. If, therefore, anyone is chosen, the choice must begin in and
    with God, for no one can do anything for himself, unless God chooses
    him and enables him.
    6. The joy of the predestinated, therefore, is that, of His infinite
    mercy, God has chosen us, through Jesus Christ . . . according to His
    good pleasure, in Whom He means "to re-establish all things in
    Christ." It is the holy Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation coupled with
    the mystery of Divine Election which explains the sustained, unremittant
    joyfulness of the Sacred Liturgy. In the Old Testament, the
    Israelites exulted over the fact that their God was true, whereas those
    of the Gentile nations were false, non-existent, dead objects of wood
    and clay and stone. They jubilated further over their own predilection:
    the true God had chosen them and guaranteed them His special favor,
    unending protection, and eventual salvation; an everlasting kingdom
    and innumerable progeny. The word, salvation, in the Old Testament
    meant earthly peace and security, divine protection, so that life on
    Part One — Chapter Five 205
    earth could be lived without enslavement to heathen enemies or loss
    of national identity.
    In Christ, the joy of the ancient Promise is made full and offered
    to men of all races and languages and tribes and nations. But more
    important, Christ our Savior reveals that the ancient Promise had
    dimensions only vaguely conceived by the Israelites. He makes his
    promises not to the whole human race, but to the Elect among the
    nations, Jews and Gentiles both. In the New Testament, salvation is
    revealed to be everlasting life in the immediate vision of the most
    Blessed Trinity in Heaven. The jubilation of the early Christians
    which inspired the Sacred Liturgy is the assurance that there is life
    after death, that most men will suffer eternally because of their
    perverseness, but they, who have been called through the preaching of
    " the Apostles and their co-workers, will not be lost due to their sins,
    which they could not deny, but will be saved through the Spirit, the
    Water and the Blood (I Jn. 5:8)., the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth,
    Baptism and the Eucharist. St. Paul is unmistakable in his insistence
    that only those who enter the Church have hope of salvation. He
    insists that before faith and Baptism, whether for Jew or Greek, there
    is only damnation. (I Cor. 1:18). He says that even in his day, the
    word had already filled the earth. (Rom. 10:18). The reason the word
    travelled so quickly was its absoluteness, its urgent warning, and its
    message of hope. The message was utterly simple: I say unto you that
    unless you repent and accept Baptism and believe in Christ, you shall
    perish. What he was saying and what he was understood to mean was
    that all who might wish to be saved must become Christians by joining
    the Church, believe and live the Gospel, whole and entire, pure
    and unadulterated.
    St. Paul tells the people that they should not be petty and
    frivolous, as were the pagans around them, and such as they had
    formerly been. Their conversation (i.e., their preoccupation and orientation)
    should be toward Heaven (Phil. 3:20). They should give themselves
    up to constant prayer. (I Thes. 5:17). Their primary prayer
    should be one of thanksgiving (Col. 1:12)., thanksgiving over their
    predestination to salvation.
    And, as we have said, the Liturgy which grew out of the Early
    Church reflects this spirit of exultant gratitude. The spiritual elation
    expressed in the psalms of David and the other inspired singers of the
    Old Testament was raised to a much more sublime dimension in the
    New. Thus do the songs of Israelite joy become the canticles of the
    Christian Church, sung in the catacombs, in the Coliseum and arenas
    of martyrdom, and in the monasteries of the East and West.
    206 Who Shall Ascend?
    The idea of salvation outside the Church is opposed to the
    Doctrine of Predestination. This Doctrine means that from all eternity
    God has known who were His own. It is for the salvation of these, His
    Elect, that Providence has directed, does direct, and will always
    direct, the affairs of men and the events of history. Nothing, absolutely
    nothing, that happens, has not been taken into account by the
    infinite God, and woven into that tapestry in which is written the
    history of the salvation of His saints. Central in this providential overlordship
    is the Church itself, which is the sacred implement which
    God devised for the rescuing of His beloved ones from the damnation
    decreed for those who would not. (Mt. 23:37).
    The Doctrine of Divine Election means that only certain
    individuals will be saved. They will be saved primarily because, in
    the inscrutable omniscience of God, only certain individuals out of all
    the human family will respond to the grace of salvation. In essence,
    this doctrine refers to what in terms of human understanding and
    vision, is before and after, the past, the present, and the future, but
    what in God is certain knowledge and unpreventable fact, divine
    action and human response. St. Paul summarized this doctrine with
    these words in his Letter to the Romans:
    8:28 — And we know that to them that love God, all things
    work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose,
    are called to be saints.
    29 — For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made
    conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the
    firstborn amongst many brethren.
    30 — And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And
    whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified,
    them he also glorified.
    Calvin and others have made the mistake of believing that these
    words mean that predestination excludes human choice and dispenses
    from true virtue. Catholic doctrine explains simply that the foreknowledge
    of God precedes the giving of grace. It means, further,
    that, since without grace there can be no merit, and without merit no
    salvation, those who will be saved must be foreknown as saved by
    God, if they are to receive the graces necessary for salvation. Among
    the discourses of Christ we find the following refrain: "He who has
    ears to hear, let him hear." (Mt. 11:15, 13:9, 43). Jesus was aware that
    in the crowds He addressed were some who would be saved. They
    would be saved because they would find faith in Him by the power of
    the Spirit, through Whom they would recognize the divine truth which
    Part One — Chapter Five 207
    He spoke. Moreover, again by the power of the Spirit within them,
    these would respond to the truth which they recognized with the
    assent of faith and the grasping of joyful love. Others who listened to
    Christ heard exactly the same words, but did not have the "ears with
    which to hear;" that is, they would not accept the grace to believe the
    truth which Christ expounded; for these latter, it had neither
    comprehensibleness nor urgency nor appeal. It might be better to say
    its meaning was both comprehended and its demand recognized. The
    reason Christ’s words were not accepted by most of His hearers was
    that they were unwilling to submit to its demands.
    This doctrine means that "he that hath, to him shall be given, and
    he shall abound: but he that hath not, from him shall be taken away
    that also which he hath.” (Mt. 13:12). It might be stated in this way:
    He who is willing to act for the sake of his own salvation, will receive
    all that he needs in the way of grace to be saved, and more than
    enough—"good measure and pressed down and shaken together and
    running over into your bosom." (Lk. 6:38). As God has always known
    which man would act thus, He has determined from eternity to save
    him.
    This mystery was a familiar doctrine to the Jews of the first
    generation of the Church, because it was prefigured in the predilection
    of God for the Israelite nation.
    Those who say there is salvation outside the Church (no matter
    how they say it) do not comprehend that those who are in the Church
    have been brought into it by the Father, through Christ the Savior, in
    fulfillment of His eternal design to save them. The only reason that
    God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found
    in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it. If God can arrange
    for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can
    arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is
    absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God’s achieving His designs,
    except the intractable wills of His children. Nothing prevents His
    using the skies for his billboard, and the clouds for lettering, or the
    rolling thunder for the proclamation of His word. (Indeed, for
    believers, He does just this: "The heavens shew forth the glory of
    God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands." {Ps. 18:1}.
    But for atheists the heavens have no message at all.) If poverty were
    the reason some do not believe, he could load them down with
    diamonds; if youth were the reason, He could make sure they grew to
    a hoary old age. If it were merely the want of information, He could
    208 Who Shall Ascend?
    put a library on their doorstep, or a dozen missionaries in their front
    room. Were it for a want of brains, he could give every man an [.Q. of
    three hundred: it would cost Him nothing.
    The idea that someone died before he was able to receive Baptism,
    suggests that God was unable to control events, so as to give the
    person time to enter the Church. If time made any difference, God
    could and would keep any person on earth a hundred, or a thousand,
    or ten thousand years.
    "O Wisdom . . . You orderest all things mightily and sweetly
    ..." (From the liturgy of Advent).
    Thus, what is the meaning of this election? That from all eternity
    God has ordered the events of history, so that His Elect might have
    the grace of salvation. And how do they know of this election? By the
    fact that they are in the Church, through no deservingness of their
    own? They know of no reason why God should bestow this grace, the
    knowledge of the truth, and the willingness and power to believe it,
    upon them, while others, who seem more worthy, go without it.
    As regards His Elect, not only has God determined to bestow
    necessary grace, but also, all His actions in the world must be seen as
    part of His salvific plan. In a word, nothing that He does is unrelated
    to the salvation of His Beloved Sheep. Human history, apart from the
    glory of Holy Church, and the salvation of the Elect, and the punishment
    of the wicked, has little importance for almighty God. Yet, all
    these purposes are only a part of the manifestation of His glory.
    Those who speak of it have the problem of reconciling the
    mystery of Predestination with the idea of "baptism of desire." From
    all eternity, almighty God has known the fate of every soul. In His
    Providence, He has arranged for the entrance into the Church of
    certain millions of persons, and has seen to it that they receive the
    grace of faith, the Sacrament of Baptism, the grace of repentance, the
    forgiveness of their sins, and all the other requisites of salvation.
    According to The Attenuators, in the case of "non-Catholic saints,"
    and of those who died before they might receive Baptism, God was
    simply unable to see to these necessaries. Untoward and unforeseen
    circuмstances arose which prevented His providing these other millions
    with the means of salvation. Theirs is a story of supreme irony,
    that although the God of omniscience and omnipotence mastered the
    history of all nations and the course of every life, angelic and human,
    in the case of certain ones, His timing was off by just a few days, or
    Part One — Chapter Five 209
    hours, or minutes. It was His earlier intention to make sure that they
    received Baptism of water; He had it all planned out; but alas! on the
    particular day of their demise, His schedule was so full, that He simply
    could not get to them; for which reason, in that it was His fault, He
    is bound to provide an alternative instrumentality: "baptism of desire"
    is his substitute for the real thing!
    "That every mouth be stopped.” (Rom. 3:19). The Diluters of the
    Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation do not perceive the Pelagian tenor of
    their position, that some may be saved outside the Church through
    nothing but their good will. It is exactly because this is impossible
    and, more important, offensive to God, that the notion must be
    rejected. We say impossible, because no man can save himself. The
    fact that every man must receive Baptism and thus enter the Church
    means that he is dependent upon God to make it possible for him to
    receive the Sacrament, and further, through this Sacrament, it is
    Christ Who acts to purge the sinner of his sins, and ingraft him into
    His Mystical Body. No individual can do this by himself. He is
    dependent upon another to pour the water and say the words, and he is
    dependent upon God to provide this minister, and to make the
    sacramental sign effective of grace. It is thus so that none may attribute
    his salvation to his own doing.
    Pride is the chief vice of man, as it was and is of the demons of
    Hell. It is pride more than any other fault that blinds men to the truth,
    that obstructs faith, and hardens their hearts to conversion from sin.
    As was said above, it is not a want of information, nor is it a lack of
    enough time to do what they must, nor is it a want of someone to
    teach them, nor the abstruseness of revealed truth, nor the confusion
    created by the welter of heresies which grow like cockle amidst the
    wheat (Mt. 13:25f)., which prevents men from coming to the
    knowledge of the truth. The root problem is pride, which gives birth
    to the refusal to believe; because with the truth comes the imperative
    of obedience. The primordial disposition of all the damned is the
    same: "I will not serve."
    The Doctrine of Predestination is that almighty God from all
    eternity both knew and determined who would be saved, that is, who
    would allow Him to save them. He would be the cause of their salvation,
    and, as there is no power that can even faintly obstruct or
    withstand Him, there is no power which can prevent His saving whom
    He wishes, except, of course, the man himself. The means which He
    established to accomplish this act of salvation is the Catholic Church.
    It is through this sacred instrument that He fulfills His eternal deter210
    Who Shall Ascend?
    mination with respect to the souls of the Elect. Therefore, it is
    altogether unreasonable to suggest that, in the case of some, the
    Church is not this instrument.
    Knowing who are "His own," God orders all things toward drawing
    them into the flock of His Church (Jn. 10:3), the Bark of Peter.
    (LK. 5:3). No matter what else God is doing invisibly and sovereignly
    within the affairs of man, His chief work is saving those who will be
    saved, those who will respond to His Voice, that is, His truth. For
    those outside the Church, there is actual grace, which has the chief
    purpose of gently but surely bringing them to repentance and faith and
    Baptism. The mystery of Predestination is in the fact that the Almighty
    knows the hearts of all His children, and He knows which
    ones among them will by whatever stratagem He employs with them,
    whatever fisherman’s trick He might use to catch them, result in their
    happy sequestration. For those whom He knows will eventually be
    His, nothing is too much for Him to do; to "land them," He will
    humble Himself to a beggar, or pour out all His wealth. But these are
    the "few" of the Gospel. (Mt. 20:16). These few are those who receive
    the word with joy and bear fruit, some thirty-fold, some sixty-fold,
    and some a hundred-fold—these last being His great saints. (Mt.
    13:8).
    The "many" are those whom God knows will not be saved no
    matter what He does; on the contrary, they are the dogs and swine
    whom He describes thus: "Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither
    cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under
    their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you." (Mt. 7:6). Though He
    loves all men, the Lord does not love all men equally, because He
    knows their hearts. The hearts of the "many" He will never win
    permanently, and nothing that He might do will secure them to Himself.
    The Liberal Gainsayers imagine that they are more loving and
    understand God better than the Church, and that if He would simply
    make a greater effort, supply them with more information, He could
    win "the many" also.
    The Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation is the Church’s way of
    informing us that there is no acceptable excuse for any person on
    earth’s not becoming a Catholic. The Doctrine of Divine Election
    teaches us that at least some, a mere handful in comparison with all
    those for whom Christ died, will accept the grace—the graces, for
    there is an endless stream of them—of salvation.
    Part One — Chapter Five 211
    Among the realizations which the Lord Jesus wept and bled for
    in the Garden of Gethsemani is this: No matter what He might do to
    save them, the "many" will hate Him for it; they will take all His
    material, earthly gifts, and devour them like pigs, and ever clamor for
    more. But of gratitude and repentance, of faith and love, they will
    have nothing. These accursed souls are personified in Judas, who had
    received nothing but kindness and honor and enlightenment from
    Christ. Let The Deniers give an explanation why Judas did not just
    walk away from Christ, or tell Him that he had lost interest, that he
    liked the feel of money, and had decided to open a clothing store. No,
    he must sell his Master, Him Whom, for months he had seen as the
    sweetest, most thoughtful, most patient, and wisest of all the men of
    his experience.
    The "many" are personified in Pilate, whom Our Lord tried
    sincerely to save, while He proceeded to thwart Pilate’s lame efforts
    to save Him. But Pilate, like ninety-nine percent (or thereabouts) of
    those in public office, determinedly thrust away the grace. It would
    have been perfectly easy for him to save Jesus and his own soul (The
    Savior of the world stood right before him, subject to him!—as He
    does to every man, in the Church), but he chose to do everything the
    wrong (and harder) way.
    The "many" are personified in the scribes and Pharisees, the
    priests, and Annas and Caiphas, who knew perfectly well, as
    Nicodemas said, that Christ had come "a teacher from God," (Jn. 3:2).
    They knew that His miracles were authentic, that His character was
    blameless, that His teaching was irresistible and holy, that He was a
    luminous exemplar of every man of religion. "He saved others; himself
    he cannot save" (Mt. 27:42 and Mk. 15:31)., they said, thus admitting
    the former truth, while closing their eyes to any explanation
    for the latter. The truth was clearly before them, as the truth of the
    Catholic Church is before the men of the world of this and every other
    generation, but they were determined to reject Christ, and in order to
    justify their doing so, they must convince themselves and everyone
    around them, that He was not what He appeared to be. Furthermore,
    they will not be content simply to let Jesus go. They must kill Him;
    and not kill Him merely, but kill Him cruelly and ignominiously.
    They must somehow vent their resentment of His grace and His
    majesty and His holiness against Him, to teach Him that they would
    bow to NO ONE, save each other. They will take their revenge
    against Him, Whose very divinity they could not deny, Whose resurrection
    they could not disprove. Mutatis mutandis, the very same can
    212 Who Shall Ascend?
    be said of all those who have rejected the Church, from that day to
    this one. If they would only make an effort, it would be no problem to
    them, but they will not. And the Lord Jesus, there in the Garden, saw
    that they would not, and it sorely grieved His Sacred Heart to foresee
    it.
    H.
    The Mystical Body of Christ
    And he is the head of the body, the church,
    who is the beginning, the first-born from the dead;
    that in all things, he may hold the primacy:
    Because in him, it hath well-pleased the Father,
    that all fulness should dwell;
    And through him to reconcile all things unto himself,
    making peace through the blood of his cross,
    both as to the things on earth,
    and the things that are in heaven.
    (Col. 1:18-20).
    Catholics believe that as Jesus Christ lived His natural
    life on earth two thousand years ago in a Body drawn from
    Mary, so He lives His Mystical Life today in a Body drawn from
    the human race in general—called the Catholic Church—that
    her words are His, her actions are His, her life His (with certain
    restrictions and exceptions), as surely as were the words,
    actions, and life recorded in the Gospels: it is for this reason
    that they give to the Church the assent of their faith, believing
    that in doing so they are rendering it to God Himself. She is
    not merely His vicegerent on earth, not merely His representative,
    not merely even His Bride: in a real sense she is Himself.
    That in this manner, as well as in another which is not our
    business at present, He fulfills His promise to be with His
    disciples all days, even to the consummation of the world. To
    express the whole position once more under another aspect, in
    order to make clear what the position on which I purpose to
    enlarge, it may be said that God expressed Himself in terms of
    a single life in the Gospels, and of a corporate life in the
    Church. The written Gospel is the record of a past life; the
    Church is the living Gospel and record of a present life. Here
    He "looks through the lattice," (Prov. 7:6). visible to all who
    have eyes; here He reproduces, in century after century and
    country after country, the events and crises of the life lived in
    Judaea. Here He works out and fills up, on the canvas of the
    world’s history, that outline laid down two thousand

    Offline St Giles

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1579
    • Reputation: +820/-193
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ephesians 1: "predestinated"
    « Reply #4 on: September 24, 2025, 01:47:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Click to enlarge







    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


    Offline Mark 79

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12994
    • Reputation: +8544/-1612
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ephesians 1: "predestinated"
    « Reply #5 on: September 24, 2025, 04:12:04 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • "Calvin and others have made the mistake of believing that these
    words mean that predestination excludes human choice and dispenses
    from true virtue. Catholic doctrine explains simply that the fore-
    knowledge of God precedes the giving of grace."


    Perfect. It reconciles years of catechism on the errors of predestination.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2332
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ephesians 1: "predestinated"
    « Reply #6 on: September 24, 2025, 07:06:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Can anyone comment knowledgeably about "predestinated" as it appears in Ephesians 1?

    https://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=56&ch=1&l=1-20#x

    1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, to all the saints who are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus 2 Grace be to you, and peace from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ 4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity 5 Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will
    [3] "In heavenly places": or, in heavenly things. In coelestibus.
    6 Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us in his beloved son 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace 8 Which hath superabounded in us in all wisdom and prudence 9 That he might make known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in him 10 In the dispensation of the fulness of times, to re-establish all things in Christ, that are in heaven and on earth, in him
    11 In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will 12 That we may be unto the praise of his glory, we who before hoped in Christ 13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation;) in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise 14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory 15 Wherefore I also, hearing of your faith that is in the Lord Jesus, and of your love towards all the saints
    [14] "Acquisition": that is, a purchased possession.
    16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making commemoration of you in my prayers 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and of revelation, in the knowledge of him 18 The eyes of your heart enlightened, that you may know what the hope is of the glory of his inheritance in the saints 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power towards us, who believe according to the operation of the might of his power 20 Which he wrought in Christ, raising him up from the dead, and setting him on his right hand in the heavenly places  [Ephesians 1:1-20]

    Mark,

    I started a thread that has a ton of information about that, quotes from St. Augustine, St. Thomas, the annotations to the Original Rheims NT and Haydock, and some more:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/god's-salvific-will-to-save-'all-men'-and-the-death-of-unbaptized-infants/

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2332
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ephesians 1: "predestinated"
    « Reply #7 on: September 25, 2025, 06:17:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I attached the chapter from Who Shall Ascend? on predestination where imo, he beautifully explains Ephesians chapter 1. 

    Stubborn,

    Matt 183 has done us the favor of quoting that chapter in this thread verbatim (as far as I can tell it appears complete), which makes it easier to reference.

    First, let me stress that the issue of predestination and the workings of grace in some aspects is contentious and left open to debate by the Church, such that a Catholic can take different views in the open areas, as to why God predestines some and not others. It appears that Father Wathen is of the view that God predestines those whom He foresees choosing Him. I say "appears" because it's not clear to me, but he implies that without coming out and saying it. I disagree, but, again, Father Wathen and those who agree with him are perfectly free to believe that and take that view.

    But let's be clear: the "big guns," the Church's greatest doctors and theologians, are against that view. Neither St. Augustine nor St. Thomas would agree with it. I cited a thread for Mark, and you can read tons of quotes there. I've studied this in some depth for years, and I think I have a decent grasp, and I've tried to explain it there as well. Suffice now for me to quote from one of St. Augustine's works:


    Quote
    Chapter 23.—Why for the People of Tyre and Sidon, Who Would Have Believed, the Miracles Were Not Done Which Were Done in Other Places Which Did Not Believe.




    . . . But can we say that even the Tyrians and Sidonians would have refused to believe such mighty works done among them, or would not have believed them if they had been done, when the Lord Himself bears witness to them that they would have repented with great humility if those signs of divine power had been done among them? And yet in the day of judgment they will be punished; although with a less punishment than those cities which would not believe the mighty works done in them. For the Lord goes on to say, “Nevertheless, I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.”( Matt. xi. 22 . ) Therefore the former shall be punished with greater severity, the latter with less; but yet they shall be punished. Again, if the dead are judged even in respect of deeds which they would have done if they had lived, assuredly since these would have been believers if the gospel had been preached to them with so great miracles, they certainly ought not to be punished; but they will be punished. It is therefore false that the dead are judged in respect also of those things which they would have done if the gospel had reached them when they were alive. And if this is false, there is no ground for saying, concerning infants who perish because they die without baptism, that this happens in their case deservedly, because God foreknew that if they should live and the gospel should be preached to them, they would hear it with unbelief. It remains, therefore, that they are kept bound by original sin alone, and for this alone they go into condemnation; and we see that in others in the same case this is not remitted, except by the gratuitous grace of God in regeneration; and that, by His secret yet righteous judgment—because there is no unrighteousness with God—that some, who even after baptism will perish by evil living, are yet kept in this life until they perish, who would not have perished if bodily death had forestalled their lapse into sin, and so come to their help. Because no dead man is judged by the good or evil things which he would have done if he had not died, otherwise the Tyrians and Sidonians would not have suffered the penalties according to what they did; but rather according to those things that they would have done, if those evangelical mighty works had been done in them, they would have obtained salvation by great repentance, and by the faith of Christ.


    Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 9460-9461). Kindle Edition.

    Here, St. Augustine is talking about the dead, not those who have not yet lived whose future acts are being contemplated by God via His foreknowledge. But the principle at play extends to them (the yet to be born) as well: God doesn't determine the fate of men based upon what they would do or what foresees them doing, but by what He wills for them. This principle is clear in St. Augustine interpretation of the Biblical passage
    (which I think is a sound one) regarding the Tyrians and Sidonians, who would have converted: they were not among the elect chosen by God, and God didn't will it, i.e., their conversion. To the extent God foresaw anything about the Tyrians and Sidonians, it was that they would have believed, and yet He did not predestine them.

    Father Garrigou-Lagrange is clear in his summary:


    Quote
    In another of his works, St. Thomas states the case still more clearly: "It cannot be said that certainty of foreknowledge is the only thing superadded to providence by predestination; this is tantamount to saying that God ordains the one predestined to salvation as He does anyone else, but that in the case of the one predestined He knows that he will not fail to be saved. In such a case, to be sure, there would be no difference between the one predestined and the one not predestined as regards the order of cause to effect, but only as regards the foreknowledge of the event. Thus foreknowledge would be the cause of predestination, and predestination would not be because of the choice of the one predestinating, which is contrary to the authority of the Scripture and the sayings of the saints.



    Garrigou-Lagrange, Rev. Fr. Reginald. Predestination: The Meaning of Predestination in Scripture and the Church (p. 215). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

    Now, again, that's Father GL's opinion, and mine as well. I think pondering these issues rationally and considering the consequences of each alternative position leads to the view of St. Thomas, St. Augustine, Father GL, and myself . . . but that's an opinion that one Catholic can't impose on another.

    I don't see how the "foreknowledge" view withstands scrutiny, but, hey . . . I ain't nuthin'.

    Anyway, there are alternative views to Father Wathen's "God foresees the elect will believe" view, and I think them much sounder, supported by weightier reasons and authorities.



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14857
    • Reputation: +6150/-916
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ephesians 1: "predestinated"
    « Reply #8 on: September 25, 2025, 07:29:09 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • For me, I keep it simple. From all eternity God knows who will be saved because God knows who will accept the graces needed to be saved and who will not. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse