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Offline Matthew

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Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
« on: September 19, 2018, 10:17:55 AM »
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  • Wednesday & Saturday - partial fast
    Friday - fast and abstinence

    partial fast = meat with just one meal (the main meal)

    partial OR full fast = 1 full meal, 2 smaller meals, no snacking between meals, no alcohol

    Abstinence - children 7 or older
    Fasting - adults 18-60, who aren't sick, pregnant or nursing, must fast.

    (I think the post-Vatican II Church changed the fasting minimum age to 18 -- it used to be 21. I suppose we should go along with this, since it's actually more strict.)
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #1 on: September 19, 2018, 10:32:35 AM »
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  • Instead of partial fast, don't you mean fast with partial abstinence?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #2 on: September 19, 2018, 10:35:35 AM »
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  • (I think the post-Vatican II Church changed the fasting minimum age to 18 -- it used to be 21. I suppose we should go along with this, since it's actually more strict.)

    Except that the post-Vatican II Church has done away with Ember Days, so then you wouldn't need to observe them at all.  Reason Novus Ordo raised the age is because they only fast 2 days the entire year (vs. all of Lent, for instance) ... and anybody even 7 and up could do THAT much.  Whereas it's much harder to do for someone still growing in the old observance (people are still growing til about 21).

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #3 on: September 19, 2018, 10:37:46 AM »
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  • Here's the question with regard to days of fast with partial abstinence.

    Is the 10 year old required to keep the "partial abstinence" even while not keeping the fast.

    Answer I've come up with is no, because partial abstinence is part of the FAST and not the abstinence.

    So one answer would have then youngster eating meat once a day and then anything else non-meat throughout the rest of the day.

    Whereas my answer is that the youngster is not required to do EITHER, because the abstinence is part of the fast and not a separate thing (being partial).

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #4 on: September 19, 2018, 10:39:50 AM »
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  • .
    Right. 
    .
    I noticed this in my missal guide for this week - apparently it always falls in the week of the 17th Sunday after Pentecost.
    .
    So Trads need to practice this Friday the same penance that we do on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. 
    .
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #5 on: September 19, 2018, 10:45:46 AM »
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  • Here's the question with regard to days of fast with partial abstinence.

    Is the 10 year old required to keep the "partial abstinence" even while not keeping the fast.

    Answer I've come up with is no, because partial abstinence is part of the FAST and not the abstinence.

    So one answer would have then youngster eating meat once a day and then anything else non-meat throughout the rest of the day.

    Whereas my answer is that the youngster is not required to do EITHER, because the abstinence is part of the fast and not a separate thing (being partial).

    We have our kids eat meatless meals the rest of the day, on those partial fast days. Ditto for the pregnant or nursing. The reasoning being: going without meat isn't going to kill you or even cause the slightest malnutrition. It's just a good wholesome sacrifice. And it gets the kids ready to fast and abstain (practice the Ember Days in general) when they're older.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #6 on: September 19, 2018, 10:47:00 AM »
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  • .
    So Trads need to practice this Friday the same penance that we do on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
    .

    Yes, and unfortunately St. Matthew's day falls on Friday this year. It dances all around the Fall Ember Week, being September 21.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #7 on: September 19, 2018, 10:47:52 AM »
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  • Instead of partial fast, don't you mean fast with partial abstinence?

    No, I meant partial fast, as in "half a fish" on your Trad calendar -- because you need to eat meatless/fish at SOME of your meals.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #8 on: September 19, 2018, 10:48:12 AM »
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  • .
    Question:
    How much meat is considered one portion? 
    A)  Half of a small meatball or 1 ounce meat
    B)  One large meatball or 4 ounces of flesh meat (beef, pork, chicken, lamb, etc., but not seafood)
    C)  10 ounces of ground beef (one hamburger patty at Cousin's Burgers)
    D)  20 ounce Porterhouse steak
    E)  Full rack of baby back ribs
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #9 on: September 19, 2018, 10:52:34 AM »
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  • Yes, and unfortunately St. Matthew's day falls on Friday this year. It dances all around the Fall Ember Week, being September 21.
    .
    You know, in America we get the dispensation of having the day off on Friday following Thanksgiving Day and on March 17th when St. Patrick's Day falls on Friday. So you could check and see if when your name is Matthew, if the Feast of St. Matthew falling on Friday might be in the same ballpark. I mean, he was an Apostle. St. Patrick wasn't an Apostle. 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #10 on: September 19, 2018, 10:59:58 AM »
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  • Except that the post-Vatican II Church has done away with Ember Days, so then you wouldn't need to observe them at all.  Reason Novus Ordo raised the age is because they only fast 2 days the entire year (vs. all of Lent, for instance) ... and anybody even 7 and up could do THAT much.  Whereas it's much harder to do for someone still growing in the old observance (people are still growing til about 21).
    .
    Any Catholic who is wont to recognize (at least until things get cleared up) the legitimacy of Newchurch for making laws, would not be committing a sin by not abiding by the old Ember Days restrictions, nonetheless, it's a bit hypocritical to adhere to the rest of the pre-Vatican II rules but then ignore one or more such as these. If you're going to stick with the longstanding guidelines, then that's what you should do. Stick with them. 
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #11 on: September 19, 2018, 11:36:24 AM »
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  • .
    Any Catholic who is wont to recognize (at least until things get cleared up) the legitimacy of Newchurch for making laws, would not be committing a sin by not abiding by the old Ember Days restrictions, nonetheless, it's a bit hypocritical to adhere to the rest of the pre-Vatican II rules but then ignore one or more such as these. If you're going to stick with the longstanding guidelines, then that's what you should do. Stick with them.

    That was kindof my point.  If you're going to do the Ember Days, then 21 is the right age.  If you're going with the new rules of 18, then the Ember Days aren't required at all.  While not ideal, if you believe the current Popes are legitimate, there's nothing positively wrong with cancelling a fast.  If we mix and match, then we're setting ourselves up as our own authority ... not unlike cafeteria Catholics.

    Of course, there's no regulation PREVENTING a 19-year-old from fasting even under the traditional rules, but we're speaking here about what we hold in our consciences to be strictly obligatory.  There can sometimes be a scrupulosity entering in where "I'm safe if I pick the strictest part of each."  But in truth a doubtful law does not oblige.  So unless you are a dogmatic sedevacantist who holds that there's NO DOUBT about the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants, the Ember Day fasting regulations do not bind under pain of sin.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #12 on: September 19, 2018, 11:40:45 AM »
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  • We have our kids eat meatless meals the rest of the day, on those partial fast days. Ditto for the pregnant or nursing. The reasoning being: going without meat isn't going to kill you or even cause the slightest malnutrition. It's just a good wholesome sacrifice. And it gets the kids ready to fast and abstain (practice the Ember Days in general) when they're older.

    Sure it won't kill you.  But the question is what's obligatory.  While you can say that's being Pharisaical, it's important to know what's strictly binding on the conscience vs. what's praiseworthy but not strictly required.  Otherwise, moral theologians would all be out of work.  Heck, someone could fast every single day of the year if he wanted to.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #13 on: September 19, 2018, 11:43:28 AM »
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  • I agree.  There are 2 laws - the old and the new.  Pick one or the other.  If you try to blend them, you are being your own Church.  There's a reason the Church had ember days start at age 21, so, if you want to follow the ember days (which isn't required) then follow the age of 21.  Don't overcomplicate things and don't let the devil tempt you to be "more holy" than the Church.

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Ember Days this Week - Starting Wednesday
    « Reply #14 on: September 19, 2018, 11:51:58 AM »
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  • I messed up today. I did not know it was an ember day until I looked at my calendar after eating breakfast. So I just ate a normal breakfast. Not a big one, just one serving of oatmeal and two pieces of toast. So I ate too much food to be a small meal but not enough to last me through the day. So my plan is to just skip the second small meal and not eat again until dinner. Sometimes at Church the priest reminds us of the ember days but he forgot this week so I forgot also. I remember last fall he even said that he thought partial abstinence was a weird innovation and that it would be better to just observe full abstinence on the ember days.
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