Author Topic: Ember days? (Read 2864 times)

Marlelar · « **on:** September 20, 2015, 10:37:03 PM »

Our SSPX chapel says the Ember days are this week, but my traditional calendar shows them as last week. Is the transfer to this week a NO invention?

JezusDeKoning · « **Reply #1 on:** September 20, 2015, 10:51:53 PM »

I imagine they're a 1962 invention.

Iuvenalis · « **Reply #2 on:** September 21, 2015, 12:06:37 AM »

You have John XXIII to thank.

Traditionally the Ember days in Sept began on the Wed following the third liturgical Sunday in Sept (which could be Aug 29!)

John XXIII wanted to "simplify" this to the third Sunday actually within the *calendar* month.

MaterDominici · « **Reply #3 on:** September 21, 2015, 12:12:52 AM »

The timing was modified by Pope John XXIII, so according to the 1962 calendar, it would be this week, but following an older calendar might have the ember days last week.

2Vermont · « **Reply #4 on:** September 21, 2015, 04:19:54 AM »

No, ember days are this week according to my pre-1962 St Andrew's missal.

clare · « **Reply #5 on:** September 21, 2015, 05:21:02 AM »

Quote from: Iuvenalis

Traditionally the Ember days in Sept began on the Wed following the third liturgical Sunday in Sept (which could be Aug 29!)

How?? :confused1:

TKGS · « **Reply #6 on:** September 21, 2015, 06:43:21 AM »

According to the online Catholic Encyclopedia (1917 edition):

Ember days (corruption from Lat. Quatuor Tempora, four times) are the days at the beginning of the seasons ordered by the Church as days of fast and abstinence. They were definitely arranged and prescribed for the entire Church by Pope Gregory VII (1073-1085) for the Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday after 13 December (S. Lucia), after Ash Wednesday, after Whitsunday, and after 14 September (Exaltation of the Cross).

So the Ember Days were, in fact, last week (i.e., 16, 18, and 19 September 2015). The Masses of the Ember Days appear in the Missal after the 17th Sunday after Pentecost, but because Pentecost is a movable feast, they do not necessarily follow that particular Sunday.

Interestingly, I have a hand Missal published by the SSPX which also indicates the Ember Days were last week. I also have a copy of a hand missal published in 1965 that has the first changes including the all-English Canon. It also indicates that the Ember Days were in the week following the 14th of September. Presumably, this missal would have included any changes ordered by John 23, but there are no changes in the timing of the September Ember Days shown.

Is it possible that that SSPX chapel simply made an error or is this change published on the SSPX calendar? Does the FSSP celebrate the Ember Days? Anyone have a Calendar approved by the FSSP? In each of my missals, which include 1945, 1955, 1962, and 1965 missals, the Ember Days are listed as occurring the Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday after the 14th of September. I believe the Ember Days were completely abandoned in the Novus Ordo.

Edit to add: I just found an online FSSP source that indicates that the Ember Days in September this year are in fact moved to this week. This is interesting since none of the published missals I have provide any information on this change. I don't know where it came from or why these changes are not indicated in the Conciliar or SSPX missal.

Matto · « **Reply #7 on:** September 21, 2015, 08:03:28 AM »

I have the official SSPX calendar and it says ember days start this Wednesday the 23rd.

Dolores · « **Reply #8 on:** September 21, 2015, 08:05:15 AM »

As others have stated, this is a modification that was made by John XXIII in the 1962 missal.

The other three Ember Days are relatively easy to calculate, given that they follow a specific Sunday (Third Sunday in Advent, First Sunday in Lent, and Pentecost). The autumn Ember Days, however, are a bit more complicated, because they follow the "third liturgical Sunday of September," which, believe it or not, is not as simple to figure out as it might seem.

Under the "old" was of calculating things, the first liturgical Sunday in September didn't actually have to occur in September; rather, it was the Sunday that occurred during the first week of September. So, for example, this year, the first liturgical Sunday of September was actually August 30. This would make the third liturgical Sunday of the month September 13, and thus the Ember Days would be the 16th, 17th, and 19th.

John XXIII modified this so that liturgical Sundays and calendar Sundays became the same thing. So, the Ember Days followed the actual third Sunday in September, which was September 20, making the Ember Days the 23rd, 24th, and 26th.

A lot of people believe that the autumnal Ember Days are connected with the Feast of Exaltation of the Holy Cross, but this is not officially correct. It is an often-cited rule of thumb, but officially the timing of the Ember Days has always been connected with the third Sunday of September. It just a question of how you calculate what the third Sunday actually is.

Matthew · « **Reply #9 on:** September 21, 2015, 08:35:26 AM »

Yes, I think it's a 1962 Missal thing, which is why...

I always know when the Ember Days are in the Fall, because they always fall during the week of St. Matthew (September 21).

But I was mostly in the SSPX. Before that, I don't remember anything about Ember Days. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention, maybe my family didn't "do them" (or know about them), I don't know. We were Trad though.

Sometimes my Name Day even falls on the FRIDAY of Ember Week. Ugh!

clare · « **Reply #10 on:** September 21, 2015, 08:38:54 AM »

Quote from: Dolores

...
Under the "old" was of calculating things, the first liturgical Sunday in September didn't actually have to occur in September; rather, it was the Sunday that occurred during the first week of September. So, for example, this year, the first liturgical Sunday of September was actually August 30. This would make the third liturgical Sunday of the month September 13, and thus the Ember Days would be the 16th, 17th, and 19th.
...

I can see how the first liturgical Sunday for September can be in August, but not how the third can (as Iuvenalis said: "Traditionally the Ember days in Sept began on the Wed following the third liturgical Sunday in Sept (which could be Aug 29!)").

TKGS · « **Reply #11 on:** September 21, 2015, 09:27:05 AM »

Quote from: Dolores

A lot of people believe that the autumnal Ember Days are connected with the Feast of Exaltation of the Holy Cross, but this is not officially correct. It is an often-cited rule of thumb, but officially the timing of the Ember Days has always been connected with the third Sunday of September. It just a question of how you calculate what the third Sunday actually is.

Where can you find this information? I ask because the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia specifically gives this rule as well. I've looked online but can find no reference to this third liturgical Sunday of September and every reference I've found specifically identifies it as being the days immediately following September 14th. I'm really very curious about this.

An additional note: I found this information about the destruction of the Ember Days:

Quote

In 1966, Pope Paul VI’s apostolic constitution, Paenitemini, which addressed and altered feasting regulations, excluded Ember Days as days of fast and abstinence. In 1969, the liturgical reforms altered how they are observed in parishes:

“On rogation and ember days the practice of the Church is to offer prayers to the Lord for the needs of all people, especially for the productivity of the earth and for human labour, and to make public thanksgiving. In order to adapt the rogation and ember days to various regions and the different needs of the faithful, the conferences of bishops should arrange the time and plan of their celebration. Consequently, the competent authority should lay down norms, in view of local conditions, on extending such celebrations over one or several days and on repeating them during the year. On each day of these celebrations the Mass should be one of the votive Masses for various needs and occasions that is best suited to the intentions of the petitioners.”

-General Norms for the Liturgical Year Calendar, Apostolic Letter of Pope Paul VI

Source: http://tinyurl.com/ofwnta4

So Montini essentially did away with the Ember Days in 1966 even before the Novus Ordo. I guess fasting wasn't his style.

Matto · « **Reply #12 on:** September 21, 2015, 09:33:02 AM »

Quote from: TKGS

So Montini essentially did away with the Ember Days in 1966 even before the Novus Ordo. I guess fasting wasn't his style.

This reminds me of something I remember that I read about Paul VI. He was being ecuмenical with an Orthodox Bishop (I believe Coptic) and the Orthodox Bishop said he had trouble believing that the Catholic Church was a true Church because there was so little fasting.

Dolores · « **Reply #13 on:** September 21, 2015, 10:24:05 AM »

Quote from: TKGS

Where can you find this information? I ask because the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia specifically gives this rule as well. I've looked online but can find no reference to this third liturgical Sunday of September and every reference I've found specifically identifies it as being the days immediately following September 14th. I'm really very curious about this.

See the article linked below. I should slightly correct my earlier post, however. First, the change in the Ember Days was a result of revisions to Breviary in 1960, not the 1962 Missal. Second, under the "old" calculation of the Ember Days, the Feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross could reliably be used as a date for calculating when they occurred, but it was still primarily based on the third liturgical week of September, so that the appropriate Matins readings would match up with the Ember Days.

This, of course, was changed, and the Matins readings disrupted, but the modifications made by John XXIIII.

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2014/09/the-calculation-of-september-ember-days.html#.VgAea5dUUrg

Iuvenalis · « **Reply #14 on:** September 21, 2015, 10:38:36 AM »

Quote from: clare

Quote from: Dolores
...
Under the "old" was of calculating things, the first liturgical Sunday in September didn't actually have to occur in September; rather, it was the Sunday that occurred during the first week of September. So, for example, this year, the first liturgical Sunday of September was actually August 30. This would make the third liturgical Sunday of the month September 13, and thus the Ember Days would be the 16th, 17th, and 19th.
...

I can see how the first liturgical Sunday for September can be in August, but not how the third can (as Iuvenalis said: "Traditionally the Ember days in Sept began on the Wed following the third liturgical Sunday in Sept (which could be Aug 29!)").

Yes, you can start counting as early as Aug 29, so the third liturgical Sun in Sep could be the second calendar Sun in Sep