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Author Topic: Eat Meat Today?  (Read 3605 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Eat Meat Today?
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2023, 06:41:10 PM »
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  • They are, but perhaps this is a mistake.  If you check the pre-55 rules, it is clear in the US that it is a day of fast a partial abstinence.

    Fr. Skierka's (SSPV) calendar clearly indicates it.

    Or maybe it's not a mistake.  While a pre-55 missal (of unknown provenance) might indicate this, it's also possible that the rule was relaxed in the US between that time and the accession of Roncalli, e.g. by Pius XII, the US bishops, etc.  Who knows?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #16 on: October 31, 2023, 06:55:43 PM »
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  • Here's one of the most thorough treatments of the matter that I've seen anywhere (from a US-centric standpoint).  It's excellent.
    https://fatima.org/news-views/pasting-part-7-fasting-in-the-1900s-pre-vatican-ii/

    So it looks like Pius XII abolished the Vigil of All Saints liturgically in 1955, leading to uncertainty about whether the Fast / Partial Abstinence too had been abolished.  So the US bishops requested clarification, which implied that the fast remained intact despite the removal of the Vigil.  But then the US bishops dispensed with both the fast and abstinence ... which both Pius XI and Pius XII had given them the authority to do.  So, unless one believes that Pius XII was a non-pope, the last pre-Roncalli status in the US is that there's no fast or partial abstinence on the Vigil of All Saints.  That may explain why it remained in the Canadian SSPX calendars.  Perhaps the Canadian bishops did not dispense with them.



    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #17 on: October 31, 2023, 09:10:23 PM »
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  • Here's one of the most thorough treatments of the matter that I've seen anywhere (from a US-centric standpoint).  It's excellent.
    https://fatima.org/news-views/pasting-part-7-fasting-in-the-1900s-pre-vatican-ii/

    So it looks like Pius XII abolished the Vigil of All Saints liturgically in 1955, leading to uncertainty about whether the Fast / Partial Abstinence too had been abolished.  So the US bishops requested clarification, which implied that the fast remained intact despite the removal of the Vigil.  But then the US bishops dispensed with both the fast and abstinence ... which both Pius XI and Pius XII had given them the authority to do.  So, unless one believes that Pius XII was a non-pope, the last pre-Roncalli status in the US is that there's no fast or partial abstinence on the Vigil of All Saints.  That may explain why it remained in the Canadian SSPX calendars.  Perhaps the Canadian bishops did not dispense with them.



    Very interesting, Lad. 

    As with so many things post-V2, we are free to follow our hearts. Next Vigil is what? December 7th? But St. Ambrose occupies that date, and it's a Duplex. December 24th? 

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #18 on: November 01, 2023, 07:14:41 AM »
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  • Very good info. It was the thought in my breast, but my "pre-VII" calendar had no fishy on it. 2V says the same for her CMRI calendar.

    I've eaten my one meal of the day, which was meatless, except for some pork flavoring in the pasta sauce.
    From now on, no meat on vigils, fishies or no fishies! :cowboy:
    I just use the calendar from schismatic-home-aloner.com , i find that it is much easier to read than the other traditional calendars I have found, and it prints well on A4. I just add my own nations old holy days of obligation by hand.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #19 on: November 01, 2023, 07:21:55 AM »
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  • Here's one of the most thorough treatments of the matter that I've seen anywhere (from a US-centric standpoint).  It's excellent.
    https://fatima.org/news-views/pasting-part-7-fasting-in-the-1900s-pre-vatican-ii/

    So it looks like Pius XII abolished the Vigil of All Saints liturgically in 1955, leading to uncertainty about whether the Fast / Partial Abstinence too had been abolished.  So the US bishops requested clarification, which implied that the fast remained intact despite the removal of the Vigil.  But then the US bishops dispensed with both the fast and abstinence ... which both Pius XI and Pius XII had given them the authority to do.  So, unless one believes that Pius XII was a non-pope, the last pre-Roncalli status in the US is that there's no fast or partial abstinence on the Vigil of All Saints.  That may explain why it remained in the Canadian SSPX calendars.  Perhaps the Canadian bishops did not dispense with them.


    Interesting, though if one wishes to fast and abstain they can also choose to do so as an 'extra'.


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #20 on: November 01, 2023, 08:42:18 AM »
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  • I just use the calendar from schismatic-home-aloner.com , i find that it is much easier to read than the other traditional calendars I have found, and it prints well on A4. I just add my own nations old holy days of obligation by hand.

    Thanks for that resource, Anthony! 

    Happy Feast of All Saints!

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #21 on: November 01, 2023, 05:44:24 PM »
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  • Thanks for that resource, Anthony!

    Happy Feast of All Saints!
    I have noticed that my sppx bulletin schedule does not always have the same feasts (few cases) as the mhfm one. It may be due to the sspx using a slightly newer calendar?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #22 on: November 01, 2023, 07:27:02 PM »
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  • Interesting, though if one wishes to fast and abstain they can also choose to do so as an 'extra'.

    Of course.  That's always true, on any day of the year.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #23 on: November 01, 2023, 07:28:41 PM »
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  • Very interesting, Lad.

    As with so many things post-V2, we are free to follow our hearts. Next Vigil is what? December 7th? But St. Ambrose occupies that date, and it's a Duplex. December 24th?

    Except that this happened pre-Vatican II, and pre-Roncalli.  I believe that December 7th was a day of fast/abstinence in the US because December 8th was the US patronal feast ... whereas in the rest of the world it was August 14th.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #24 on: November 02, 2023, 07:39:12 AM »
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  • I have noticed that my sppx bulletin schedule does not always have the same feasts (few cases) as the mhfm one. It may be due to the sspx using a slightly newer calendar?

    Most likely. The SSPX is on the '62. Don't know about MHFM. 

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #25 on: November 02, 2023, 07:41:15 AM »
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  • Except that this happened pre-Vatican II, and pre-Roncalli.  I believe that December 7th was a day of fast/abstinence in the US because December 8th was the US patronal feast ... whereas in the rest of the world it was August 14th.

    Interesting indeed. I checked divinumofficium.org, and went all the way back to 1570. It was a Duplex of St. Ambrose. 

    But how hard is it to abstain from meat on a given day, right? Eat light, eat carbs! LOL! 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #26 on: November 02, 2023, 09:58:09 AM »
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  • Interesting indeed. I checked divinumofficium.org, and went all the way back to 1570. It was a Duplex of St. Ambrose.

    But how hard is it to abstain from meat on a given day, right? Eat light, eat carbs! LOL!

    Oh, it's not hard at all (for most people).  But it's still worth noting whether if one doesn't keep the fast he'd be committing sin.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #27 on: November 03, 2023, 07:00:16 AM »
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  • Oh, it's not hard at all (for most people).  But it's still worth noting whether if one doesn't keep the fast he'd be committing sin.
    So the final verdict on this is that it's not a mandatory fast/abstinence?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #28 on: November 03, 2023, 07:26:28 AM »
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  • This is a good chart to help understand the fasting rules of the Church.

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eat Meat Today?
    « Reply #29 on: November 03, 2023, 11:25:20 AM »
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  • This is a good chart to help understand the fasting rules of the Church.

    Yes, that's a good list for those in the US, since it's up to date until right before Roncalli took office ... for those of us who ignore everything starting from Roncalli.  Shows 1957, so that looks like it includes the removal of the Vigil of All Saints by the US bishops following the Vatican's removal of the Vigil of All Saints liturgical observation.  Someone else said that it remained in Canada (and undoubtedly in other places around the world).

    This does speak to one of the confusing aspects of R&R.  They hold that Roncalli et al. were legitimate popes.  Popes clearly have the authority/power to lift fasting regulations.  So the SSPX might put little fishes and half fishes on their calendars, but they cannot amount to anything more than suggestions or recommendations (except the 1 or 2 retained by the Novus Ordo).  But if they didn't put the fish and half-fish pictures all over their calendar, they wouldn't appear to be a Traditional group.