Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: Simeon on October 31, 2023, 08:33:39 AM
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Good Morning,
I have an SGG calendar. There's no fishy on it for today.
So we can eat meat today, yah?
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Same with CMRI calendar. Yes, we can eat meat.
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No meat today, if you want to follow pre-V2 rules, where Halloween was a fast day.
On All Hallows' Eve, Catholics were asked to follow the Church's tradition of observing a fast day before a major feast.
For many children in the United States, Halloween is their favorite holiday of the year. This is primarily the case because of all the candy children get to feast on after going trick-or-treating.
Interestingly, while this secular holiday has become associated with feasting on candy, it was originally a day of fasting in the Catholic Church.
November 1 is All Saints Day in the Catholic Church, and is usually a holy day of obligation. (There is no obligation this year for Catholics in the US, as it falls on a Monday.) All Saints Day is a solemnity, one of the highest ranked feasts in the Church, a day marked with joy and celebration.
For many centuries the Church was accustomed to observe the eve or vigil of a major feast day with a special fast. It followed the ancient saying that you should “fast before you feast.”
The Catholic Encyclopedia (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05647a.htm) explains a bit of the history behind this tradition.
In the first ages, during the night before every feast, a vigil was kept. In the evening the faithful assembled in the place or church where the feast was to be celebrated and prepared themselves by prayers, readings from Holy Writ (now the Offices of Vespers and Matins), and sometimes also by hearing a sermon … In place of nocturnal observances, the bishops introduced for the laity a fast on the day before the feast … The Synod of Seligenstadt (1022) mentions vigils on the eves of Christmas, Epiphany, the feast of the Apostles, the Assumption of Mary, St. Laurence, and All Saints.
The day prior to All Saints (October 31) was observed as a day of fasting for many centuries, all the way through the first half of the 20th century, as is mentioned in the Catholic Encyclopedia of that era. “In the United States only four of theses vigils are fast days: the vigils of Christmas, Pentecost, the Assumption, and All Saints.”
It may seem strange to modern ears that Halloween was a day of fasting, but Christians in previous centuries saw this day as a day to prepare their hearts for the celebration of All Saints.
https://aleteia.org/2021/10/27/halloween-was-originally-a-day-of-fasting/
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November 1 is All Saints Day in the Catholic Church, and is usually a holy day of obligation. (There is no obligation this year for Catholics in the US, as it falls on a Monday.) All Saints Day is a solemnity, one of the highest ranked feasts in the Church, a day marked with joy and celebration.
I'm not sure what kind of calendar the poster is looking at, but in this Anno Domini 2023 November 1st, the Solemnity of All Saints occurs on a Wednesday and is a Holy Day of Obligation. All the parishes around me are having additional anticipated (Tuesday evening) and Wednesday evening Masses to accommodate those who work during the day. My parish has added an additional Mass Thursday evening for All Souls Day for those who cannot attend the morning Mass.
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In the pre-55 calendar, the Vigil of All Saints and is a day of fast and PARTIAL abstinence in the United States. Meat may be taken at the main meal only.
In the 55 reforms, Oct 31st is a ferial day and there is no vigil. There is no fast and partial abstinence.
This is why the CMRI does not list today as a vigil nor as a fast day.
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In the pre-55 calendar, the Vigil of All Saints and is a day of fast and PARTIAL abstinence in the United States. Meat may be taken at the main meal only.
In the 55 reforms, Oct 31st is a ferial day and there is no vigil. There is no fast and partial abstinence.
This is why the CMRI does not list today as a vigil nor as a fast day.
I thought SGG was pre-55 (and they do not have partial abstinence).
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The Catholic Origins of Halloween. Quite interesting.
https://aleteia.org/2016/10/25/the-surprisingly-catholic-origins-of-halloween/
I think I’ll do the fast and partial abstinence. It’s a perfect preparation for All Saints and All Soul’s Day.
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I thought SGG was pre-55 (and they do not have partial abstinence).
They are, but perhaps this is a mistake. If you check the pre-55 rules, it is clear in the US that it is a day of fast a partial abstinence.
Fr. Skierka's (SSPV) calendar clearly indicates it.
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No meat today, if you want to follow pre-V2 rules, where Halloween was a fast day.
On All Hallows' Eve, Catholics were asked to follow the Church's tradition of observing a fast day before a major feast.
For many children in the United States, Halloween is their favorite holiday of the year. This is primarily the case because of all the candy children get to feast on after going trick-or-treating.
Interestingly, while this secular holiday has become associated with feasting on candy, it was originally a day of fasting in the Catholic Church.
November 1 is All Saints Day in the Catholic Church, and is usually a holy day of obligation. (There is no obligation this year for Catholics in the US, as it falls on a Monday.) All Saints Day is a solemnity, one of the highest ranked feasts in the Church, a day marked with joy and celebration.
For many centuries the Church was accustomed to observe the eve or vigil of a major feast day with a special fast. It followed the ancient saying that you should “fast before you feast.”
The Catholic Encyclopedia (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05647a.htm) explains a bit of the history behind this tradition.
The day prior to All Saints (October 31) was observed as a day of fasting for many centuries, all the way through the first half of the 20th century, as is mentioned in the Catholic Encyclopedia of that era. “In the United States only four of theses vigils are fast days: the vigils of Christmas, Pentecost, the Assumption, and All Saints.”
It may seem strange to modern ears that Halloween was a day of fasting, but Christians in previous centuries saw this day as a day to prepare their hearts for the celebration of All Saints.
https://aleteia.org/2021/10/27/halloween-was-originally-a-day-of-fasting/
Very good info. It was the thought in my breast, but my "pre-VII" calendar had no fishy on it. 2V says the same for her CMRI calendar.
I've eaten my one meal of the day, which was meatless, except for some pork flavoring in the pasta sauce.
From now on, no meat on vigils, fishies or no fishies! :cowboy:
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In the pre-55 calendar, the Vigil of All Saints and is a day of fast and PARTIAL abstinence in the United States. Meat may be taken at the main meal only.
In the 55 reforms, Oct 31st is a ferial day and there is no vigil. There is no fast and partial abstinence.
This is why the CMRI does not list today as a vigil nor as a fast day.
I thank you and everyone who has responded here. I wonder why SGG did not follow it's liturgical praxis.
Much obliged to all for their answers!
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The Catholic Origins of Halloween. Quite interesting.
https://aleteia.org/2016/10/25/the-surprisingly-catholic-origins-of-halloween/
I think I’ll do the fast and partial abstinence. It’s a perfect preparation for All Saints and All Soul’s Day.
Absolutely, and my "pork flecks" will not violate partial abstinence!
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They are, but perhaps this is a mistake. If you check the pre-55 rules, it is clear in the US that it is a day of fast a partial abstinence.
Fr. Skierka's (SSPV) calendar clearly indicates it.
Great! I ordered an SSPV calendar for this year.
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The Canadian SSPX calendar is marked "Vigil of All Saints" and has half a fishy.
Just checked my 1945 calendar and there is a whole fish on Oct 31, actually there is only one half fishy in the whole year and that is on Holy Saturday.
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The Canadian SSPX calendar is marked "Vigil of All Saints" and has half a fishy.
My, My!!! Good on them!!! And they always have great artwork to boot!
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Absolutely, and my "pork flecks" will not violate partial abstinence!
It’s certainly more penitential to do a full abstinence, whether it be a vigil or an ember day. I shall remember that in the future. Thanks!
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They are, but perhaps this is a mistake. If you check the pre-55 rules, it is clear in the US that it is a day of fast a partial abstinence.
Fr. Skierka's (SSPV) calendar clearly indicates it.
Or maybe it's not a mistake. While a pre-55 missal (of unknown provenance) might indicate this, it's also possible that the rule was relaxed in the US between that time and the accession of Roncalli, e.g. by Pius XII, the US bishops, etc. Who knows?
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Here's one of the most thorough treatments of the matter that I've seen anywhere (from a US-centric standpoint). It's excellent.
https://fatima.org/news-views/pasting-part-7-fasting-in-the-1900s-pre-vatican-ii/
So it looks like Pius XII abolished the Vigil of All Saints liturgically in 1955, leading to uncertainty about whether the Fast / Partial Abstinence too had been abolished. So the US bishops requested clarification, which implied that the fast remained intact despite the removal of the Vigil. But then the US bishops dispensed with both the fast and abstinence ... which both Pius XI and Pius XII had given them the authority to do. So, unless one believes that Pius XII was a non-pope, the last pre-Roncalli status in the US is that there's no fast or partial abstinence on the Vigil of All Saints. That may explain why it remained in the Canadian SSPX calendars. Perhaps the Canadian bishops did not dispense with them.
(https://i.ibb.co/9nJJ3N9/halloweenfast.png)
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Here's one of the most thorough treatments of the matter that I've seen anywhere (from a US-centric standpoint). It's excellent.
https://fatima.org/news-views/pasting-part-7-fasting-in-the-1900s-pre-vatican-ii/
So it looks like Pius XII abolished the Vigil of All Saints liturgically in 1955, leading to uncertainty about whether the Fast / Partial Abstinence too had been abolished. So the US bishops requested clarification, which implied that the fast remained intact despite the removal of the Vigil. But then the US bishops dispensed with both the fast and abstinence ... which both Pius XI and Pius XII had given them the authority to do. So, unless one believes that Pius XII was a non-pope, the last pre-Roncalli status in the US is that there's no fast or partial abstinence on the Vigil of All Saints. That may explain why it remained in the Canadian SSPX calendars. Perhaps the Canadian bishops did not dispense with them.
(https://i.ibb.co/9nJJ3N9/halloweenfast.png)
Very interesting, Lad.
As with so many things post-V2, we are free to follow our hearts. Next Vigil is what? December 7th? But St. Ambrose occupies that date, and it's a Duplex. December 24th?
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Very good info. It was the thought in my breast, but my "pre-VII" calendar had no fishy on it. 2V says the same for her CMRI calendar.
I've eaten my one meal of the day, which was meatless, except for some pork flavoring in the pasta sauce.
From now on, no meat on vigils, fishies or no fishies! :cowboy:
I just use the calendar from schismatic-home-aloner.com , i find that it is much easier to read than the other traditional calendars I have found, and it prints well on A4. I just add my own nations old holy days of obligation by hand.
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Here's one of the most thorough treatments of the matter that I've seen anywhere (from a US-centric standpoint). It's excellent.
https://fatima.org/news-views/pasting-part-7-fasting-in-the-1900s-pre-vatican-ii/
So it looks like Pius XII abolished the Vigil of All Saints liturgically in 1955, leading to uncertainty about whether the Fast / Partial Abstinence too had been abolished. So the US bishops requested clarification, which implied that the fast remained intact despite the removal of the Vigil. But then the US bishops dispensed with both the fast and abstinence ... which both Pius XI and Pius XII had given them the authority to do. So, unless one believes that Pius XII was a non-pope, the last pre-Roncalli status in the US is that there's no fast or partial abstinence on the Vigil of All Saints. That may explain why it remained in the Canadian SSPX calendars. Perhaps the Canadian bishops did not dispense with them.
(https://i.ibb.co/9nJJ3N9/halloweenfast.png)
Interesting, though if one wishes to fast and abstain they can also choose to do so as an 'extra'.
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I just use the calendar from schismatic-home-aloner.com , i find that it is much easier to read than the other traditional calendars I have found, and it prints well on A4. I just add my own nations old holy days of obligation by hand.
Thanks for that resource, Anthony!
Happy Feast of All Saints!
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Thanks for that resource, Anthony!
Happy Feast of All Saints!
I have noticed that my sppx bulletin schedule does not always have the same feasts (few cases) as the mhfm one. It may be due to the sspx using a slightly newer calendar?
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Interesting, though if one wishes to fast and abstain they can also choose to do so as an 'extra'.
Of course. That's always true, on any day of the year.
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Very interesting, Lad.
As with so many things post-V2, we are free to follow our hearts. Next Vigil is what? December 7th? But St. Ambrose occupies that date, and it's a Duplex. December 24th?
Except that this happened pre-Vatican II, and pre-Roncalli. I believe that December 7th was a day of fast/abstinence in the US because December 8th was the US patronal feast ... whereas in the rest of the world it was August 14th.
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I have noticed that my sppx bulletin schedule does not always have the same feasts (few cases) as the mhfm one. It may be due to the sspx using a slightly newer calendar?
Most likely. The SSPX is on the '62. Don't know about MHFM.
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Except that this happened pre-Vatican II, and pre-Roncalli. I believe that December 7th was a day of fast/abstinence in the US because December 8th was the US patronal feast ... whereas in the rest of the world it was August 14th.
Interesting indeed. I checked divinumofficium.org, and went all the way back to 1570. It was a Duplex of St. Ambrose.
But how hard is it to abstain from meat on a given day, right? Eat light, eat carbs! LOL!
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Interesting indeed. I checked divinumofficium.org, and went all the way back to 1570. It was a Duplex of St. Ambrose.
But how hard is it to abstain from meat on a given day, right? Eat light, eat carbs! LOL!
Oh, it's not hard at all (for most people). But it's still worth noting whether if one doesn't keep the fast he'd be committing sin.
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Oh, it's not hard at all (for most people). But it's still worth noting whether if one doesn't keep the fast he'd be committing sin.
So the final verdict on this is that it's not a mandatory fast/abstinence?
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This is a good chart to help understand the fasting rules of the Church.
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This is a good chart to help understand the fasting rules of the Church.
Yes, that's a good list for those in the US, since it's up to date until right before Roncalli took office ... for those of us who ignore everything starting from Roncalli. Shows 1957, so that looks like it includes the removal of the Vigil of All Saints by the US bishops following the Vatican's removal of the Vigil of All Saints liturgical observation. Someone else said that it remained in Canada (and undoubtedly in other places around the world).
This does speak to one of the confusing aspects of R&R. They hold that Roncalli et al. were legitimate popes. Popes clearly have the authority/power to lift fasting regulations. So the SSPX might put little fishes and half fishes on their calendars, but they cannot amount to anything more than suggestions or recommendations (except the 1 or 2 retained by the Novus Ordo). But if they didn't put the fish and half-fish pictures all over their calendar, they wouldn't appear to be a Traditional group.