I attended an Eastern Catholic Melkite rite Divine Liturgy this morning for the feast of the Transfiguration which got me thinking a little about certain aspects of Eastern Orthodox theological thought and its compatibility with Catholicism. The priest spoke about how our goal is to be transformed in Christ, to be transfigured through the process of theosis. So far I agree. In the west this is generally referred to as divinization, sanctification, or perfection, a process seemingly completed in purgatory. However, the priest said this process never ends. That it continues for all eternity. He said that's why we even offer the eucharistic sacrifice for the saints (including Mary) because they continue to grow more in holiness and enjoy God in a more and more intimate union for all eternity. Is this theologically compatible with Catholicism? Is this merely speculative? How does this effect, if at all, the dogma of purgatory?

The idea of an eternal progression is correct, insofar as it will be limited by the individual soul's natural capacities. But I'm with Lad in disagreeing with the notion that Masses need to be offered for Saints. It seems pseudo-blasphemous to make such a statement.

According to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom they do seem to offer the sacrifice for the Saints. Unless it really means to honor or is a translation thing. Here are some quotes from the DL...




"Again we offer you this spiritual sacrifice for those resting in the faith, the forefathers, fathers, Patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, preachers, evangelists, Martyrs, confessors, Aesthetics, and for every Holy Soul who has run the course in the faith. Especially for our all holy, spotless most highly blessed and glorious lady the theotokos and ever virgin Mary."

If I had to guess, I would say that they regard application of the merits of the Sacrifice differently than we do.  First of all, and I am probably going to end up butchering this, they do not have a clear-cut distinction between mortal and venial sin, and --- here's where the possible butchering comes in --- they do regard prayers for the dead as being able to influence, or even alter, the fate of the immortal soul.  IOW, in Orthodox theology, it seems as though they don't regard the moment of death as a "done deal" WRT salvation or damnation.  They do have the concept of "celestial toll houses", in which the newly-reposed soul runs a gauntlet of sorts, being judged as to various types of sins, with the angels pleading one's case, so to speak, and the soul being assisted by the prayers of the faithful (which I am assuming would include the Holy Sacrifice), while at the same time being accused by demons and having their sins "thrown in their face".  Following this reasoning, and assuming that they see all of this happening outside of time, then there could (more butchering possible here) be spiritual advantage to offering prayers and sacrifice for saints who have already "run the gauntlet", in that they, too, went through the very same thing when they reposed, and they, too, were sinners.

There is a difficulty in applying this reasoning to Our Lady, as on the one hand they do not see Original Sin as we do, and thus the Immaculate Conception is something that is hard to fit into their theology, but on the other hand, they assert, as do we, that she was "all holy [and] spotless".

I'd be willing to bet, at this point, that the Orthodox would say something like "ah, Latins, there you go again, trying to explain a mystery that cannot be explained, that is beyond explanation or reason, just take the Divine Liturgy as it is and quit overthinking it".  Or something like that.

They probably would say that. They believe prayer helps the dead so they offer the Liturgy for all the living and the dead with no exceptions, which the tridentine mass does also. The tridentine mass just doesn't mention offering for the saints specifically, but obviously does offer for ALL Catholics living and dead.

As far as the toll house stuff some orthodox believe in them and some don't. There seems to be several theories of what happens after death before the final judgement. They say we can't know for sure. I've read some orthodox writings where they talk about this: when you die you immediately are plunged so to speak into the fire of God's love or the presence of God which is as a fire or something. They say if you died rejecting God you experience pain and torment in God's presence. But if you died in God grace you experience paradise. Some also talk about purification in this fire too like a purgatory. You continue to be more and more transformed in this divine fire experiencing God more and intimately forever. My question is this...once our souls go back in our glorified bodies, how would we continue theosis in this fire hypothetically? Would it be something internal?

I always like to use the "double-domed cake stand with an opening" analogy, based on these cake stands you will see at Waffle House and possibly other places.  Think of a cake stand with two domes over it, with an opening in each dome big enough to pass a piece of cake through, one dome nesting inside the other.  When you rotate the outer dome so as to have both openings line up, you can put in a spatula and get a piece of cake.  If the outer dome is rotated so as to close up the two openings, then the cake is fully covered and protected from spoilage and the open air.

Stay with me on this.  In the Orthodox view, it seems as though, indeed, "heaven and hell are the same place", with the souls inside the "domes" and the "fiery love of God" outside the domes.  The saved soul experiences this as though the openings of both domes are lined up, and he can behold God and His love directly.  On the other hand, the damned soul has the openings closed up, and he can see the fire, feel its heat, but cannot behold God directly --- he can only see what he cannot have, kind of like Tantalus and the fruit hanging just out of his reach, and has to live for all eternity with both the knowledge and the deprivation.

Here's what I'm talking about, only I couldn't find a cake stand with two domes and the openings.  Next time I'm at Waffle House, I'll have to take a picture.

Also upon further lurking the Orthodox are all over the place when it comes to the afterlife. Some believe in toll houses, some in the idea of hell and heaven in the same place like above, some even think souls can be released from hell through prayer, some say there's no hell until the final judgment just holding places/ hades, etc. Some Orthodox "saints" actually believed in purgatory but it seems most Orthodox say they reject purgatory. They seem to just want to reject anything defined by Catholicism. 

According to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom they do seem to offer the sacrifice for the Saints. Unless it really means to honor or is a translation thing. Here are some quotes from the DL...

"Again we offer you this spiritual sacrifice for those resting in the faith, the forefathers, fathers, Patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, preachers, evangelists, Martyrs, confessors, Aesthetics, and for every Holy Soul who has run the course in the faith. Especially for our all holy, spotless most highly blessed and glorious lady the theotokos and ever virgin Mary."

"For" is one of the trickiest expressions in any language, including the classical languages.  It could mean any combination of for their honor, for their benefit, on their behalf, etc. ... and then the "benefit" they receive from it needs to be understood.  Mass could certainly be offered for the intentions of Our Lady, where she could then apply the graces from the Mass as she saw fit.  It doesn't mean that the state of her soul would be affected by the Mass.

"For" is one of the trickiest expressions in any language, including the classical languages.  It could mean any combination of for their honor, for their benefit, on their behalf, etc. ... and then the "benefit" they receive from it needs to be understood.  Mass could certainly be offered for the intentions of Our Lady, where she could then apply the graces from the Mass as she saw fit.  It doesn't mean that the state of her soul would be affected by the Mass.

Someone said on an Orthodox forum that the saints, including Mary, continue to grow in union with God eternally and that our prayers for them or in their honor further this union. I don't know if this is a very common Orthodox theory or what but I've ran into the comment several times over the past few days, including in the Melkite sermon. I see how we continue to grow in union with God in eternity but our prayers helping the saints to advance so to speak does strike me as strange. I can't find it online, but I remember reading about story where a man's brother died and apparently appeared to him and said to continue to pray for him even though he was already in heaven because it helped him advance further in his union with God. I don't remember if this was a Catholic or Orthodox source. I don't think there's anything heretical here but it definitely seems foreign to Roman Catholic theology.

Very good analogy. For what it's worth I was looking through byzantine catholic forums and someone there posted that the Orthodox believe that the saints, including Mary, continue to be more and more perfectly united to God and that our prayers for them further this union.

Are you referring to my cake domes?

Not you, probably not anyone here, but there are some people who just can't comprehend analogies or hypothetical situations.

"What's that guy talking about?"

"Something about cake stands at Waffle House, and how they're like heaven and hell."

"It's really sad when someone goes crazy like that."

"Yeah, I agree.  What's this world coming to?"