Author Topic: Does NO Fulfill Sunday Obligation? (Read 2088 times)

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #1 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:49:50 PM »

Neo-Cath response. Anything "approved" is ok and obligatory no matter if it was condemned previously...

Quote

Despite the overuse of EHMC's, despite what the liturgist has opined, despite what people may think about female altar servers, despite what some may opine about how Rome "caved in", these things ARE permitted, and they are not "abuses", and NOT a reason to miss Mass. If I were in a place where the only Mass offered was an EF, and I did not like the EF, I would attend it anyway because it is my duty as a Catholic to go to Mass on Sunday. The worship of God in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is what is important here, not my feelings or preference or comfort level. Obedience to God and the legitimate teaching authority He has established in the Church is what is important. We are ONE, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, not two. We had better act like it, and support each other in Christ. Because the enemy loves nothing better than division in the Church. He loves to weaken the Body of Christ and we've seen the results of his work before. We've got to get over the EF vs. OF mentality on both sides, or the result is another schism, and that is what the Pope is trying to say when he states that Catholics must accept both forms as equally valid. He well knows the dangers of saying one form is "better" than the other. He's seen it.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #2 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:53:58 PM »

A more sincere but equally misguided response:

Quote

I have struggled often with this myself, and have come to peace with it (after about 10 years of struggle - this of course is not to say it doesn't still bother me). What you should try to do if you cannot find a TLM (or other Eastern Rite if that is preferable for you than the Ordinary Form (NO)), is fulfill your your obligation at the Ordinary Form, in accordance with Canon Law. Try and go with an open mind, with charity. Focus on the fact that no matter what abuses may or may not occur, so long as a valid priest validly confects the Eucharist, Jesus Christ is present. He should be your focus. If, God forbid, there are abuses, offer any suffering you exprience on account of it to Christ present in the Eucharist. Use that time to pray for the Church, for the healing of it, for the strengthening of the Clergy, for expansion of the Church.

I also find that it is very humbling to consider my own sins at this time (if there is some liturgical abuse occurring), and take them into the context of how much my personal actions and inactions have offended God, since those are what I personally will have to answer for. It helps me to feel more charitable and less judgemental of anyone who might be less reverent than I would like, or anyone who might be committing an abuse.

It's not easy to place yourself and family in such a situation (my children have asked me why we go to that different Mass). Use it as a springboard for catechism for your kids. If you don't know the answers, use it as a springboard for yourself to study Vatican II, and the Church docuмents pertaining to it. Study the GIRM. God will let you use any abuses to bring you and your family closer to Him, if you let Him. This is preferable to becoming bitter and accusatory.

Ultimately, I have to remind myself that God won't abandon His Church - any Catholic will be able to see where it is. Any faults and missteps that happen along the way will be corrected in His good time. We just need to unite our prayers to His will.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #3 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:23:57 PM »

Quote

I fear that with the attitude of the OP and many others who only want the TLM and will avoid going to an OF and then protesting in such an uncharitable manner towards all other valid rites or usages as the case may be, will cause many Bishops to put an end to offereing the TLM.

It has been difficult enough for some Bishops to allow the TLM to be celebrated and if they only hear negative feelings about the OF and that it is a sin to attend one, they might possibly deny parishes from celebrating it.

I know of one parish that offered the TLM and because the congregation attending it caused friction within the whole parish it was stopped. The TLM parishioners wanted no part of the parish except for the celebration the the Mass.

This is a problem that needs to changed. It was like they were an exclusive part of the parish and above everyone who attended the other Masses. Do these traditional Catholics feel that the Holy Father is the Head of the Church or do they feel that a priest or a Bishop of the SPPX is the head? From the comments it seems that they go with the latter.

There are many Catholics who are traditional but don't go to the extreme and do the best they can to worship Christ at Mass even when there are irreverent actions going on.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #4 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:25:21 PM »

Quote

This is not what the Church actually teaches, you have twisted the canons to say what you wish rather than taking them for what they actually say.

To say that the OF is morally dangerous is to separate yourself from the Church.

I believe Pope Benedict has said somethings on this.

The Mass is the Mass, whether it is the OF or the EF. You can not skip out on the Sunday obligation because you prefer the EF and you can not get to one.

You can keep lieing and leading people to sin but I will stand against you and state the Truth.

To not attend an OF Mass because you prefer the EF Mass and there is no EF Mass available on Sunday is a mortal sin, as the Church teaches.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #5 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:29:01 PM »

Those good souls who care about their Sunday obligation, may God bless them.

I would have zero qualms about missing Mass if their is no TLM, or if it is a dubious TLM. But I can most certainly sympathise. I went through that years ago, at the last minute thinking "maybe it won't be so bad". It's a doggone jungle out there, how they abuse Our Lord!

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #6 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:41:48 PM »

My response:

One can thoroughly informed one's conscience in the teachings of the Pre-Conciliar Popes as well as the Saints and those eminent theologians and Prelates at the time who fought and criticized the New Rite of Mass predicting the harm the New Rite would do to souls. Even our current Pope once described it as a "banal, on the spot production".

Even Saints canonized after VCII such as St. Escriva refused to say the New Mass, obtaining a celebret to say the old.

For one steeped in the Traditions of the Church, it is quite possible to see that the New Mass would be so alien to the Catholic Faith practiced for 1960 years that one truly, in conscience, would decide to protect their Catholic faith, they could not attend. Attendance would indeed be morally impossible for them.

I ask you where you would draw the line yourselves? Is it morally permissible for you to attend a Mass with liturgical dance? Rock music? Scandalously dressed EM's? Mimes? Heretical hymns? Heretical homilies? Changing the words of the Mass? If there is any NO Mass you would not attend, you have made a moral judgment, as we all should. It just so happens that for many Traditional Catholics that line is drawn at attendance at any NO Mass. This line is drawn after much study and reflection of true Catholic theology, the NO Rite itself, the examples of Saints, and the tragic fruits the New Rite of Mass has produced in our time.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #7 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:52:08 PM »

Another of my responses:

This is not about preference it is a moral question.

To state that the NO is dangerous is not to separate oneself from the Church. Otherwise Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci and Archbishop Lefebvre before he was suspended would have been separated from the Church for even holding this opinion. They were not. There were many priests, bishops, and faithful who protested against the NO Mass. It is true the vast majority eventually went along with it out of obedience. But that in no way takes away their sincere and vehement opposition to the changes. Many Traditional Catholics sincerely share this opposition and, in good conscience, cannot attend, especially now that we have the gift of hindsight and can see the devastation that occurred after the de facto banning of the Old Rite and introduction and mandatory use of the New.

Many here would readily admit that abuse filled NO Masses that litter our nation are dangerous. Some Traditional Catholics simply go a step further and truly believe that the NO Mass itself is dangerous because if its ambiguity and Protestantization.

I don't believe I am twisting the Canons at all as they are rather broad and even go so far as to allow a Catholic to attend a schismatic non-Catholic Mass if there is "spiritual advantage" over the NO Mass. That is a very strong statement. As I also pointed out Canon Law dispenses with the Sunday obligation for grave cause. Moral impossibility is always a grave cause.

I respect your right to disagree, but I do not believe this is an un-Catholic position especially since we are all put in an unprecedented predicament as never before has there been such a crisis of faith in the Church.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #8 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:52:52 PM »

I feel like St. Paul at Athens!

Daniel · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2009, 05:20:06 AM »

As long as you resist the temptation to dress like him in public.........

Daniel · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2009, 05:21:58 AM »

Good grief, what is that "thing" under my avatar? Is there a cure?

Arborman · « **Reply #11 on:** July 25, 2009, 01:13:39 PM »

Does the Novus Ordo Mass Fulfill My Sunday Obligation?

Yes.
Many good people go there, go to confession and live a godly life. When they die they will likely go to heaven.

That said they the NO rite is a bad rite and should be avoided if possible.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #12 on:** July 26, 2009, 02:11:15 AM »

Arborman,

What principles brought you to this conclusion?

And does your opinion only apply to those who are ignorant that the NO is a "bad rite" or even a person who knows it to be so?

Thanks.

Alex · « **Reply #13 on:** July 26, 2009, 02:34:51 AM »

Quote from: Daniel

Good grief, what is that "thing" under my avatar? Is there a cure?

LOL

Vladimir · « **Reply #14 on:** July 26, 2009, 08:01:45 AM »

I think there is ample doubt to the validity of the Novus Ordo, mainly concerning the new rite of ordination and the text of the Mass. But intent is a bigger issue.

I do not think that, except in very rare circuмstances, the Novus Ordo Missae fulfills the Sunday obligation.