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Author Topic: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?  (Read 1201 times)

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Offline ca246

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Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
« on: February 28, 2022, 06:21:15 PM »
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    • Reading a study guide for preparing for Confirmation, I was befuddled by the question, perhaps because the question is flawed, or otherwise my thinking is flawed:
    "Did the Virgin Mary need Confirmation?"
    Although I could imagine it as a contributing factor in many circuмstances, people— obviously including Our Lady, don't need the sacrament of Confirmation for Salvation. However, need might refer to a need like unto the baptism of the Virgin Mary, so that Our Lord's words in John 3:5 would remain true: nobody who is not baptized of water and the Holy Ghost can enter into the kingdom of God, so that Our Lady needed to be baptized for those words to remain true if she were to enter into the kingdom of God. However, I haven't found such a logical necessity with Confirmation. What an absolute need is, expressed so ambiguously, eludes me, yet overlooking the implications of the word need, the question becomes no easier to answer. The Virgin Mary was already full of grace at the time of the Annunciation, so one would think the answer is NO, yet it makes sense for Our Lady to receive the indelible character of Confirmation to be more closely linked with the Church, and given her role as the mediatrix of all graces, the answer would seem to be YES, though not for herself.
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    "Since she had already received the Spirit for herself and was therefore full of grace for herself personally, the same Spirit was now to come upon her for us also, so that she might become overflowing and overflowing with grace. From such fullness we have all received."
    —St. Bernard of Clairvaux
    Indeed without her presence, the descent of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost would not have happened.
    Quote
    "She it was through her powerful prayers obtained that the spirit of our Divine Redeemer, already given on the Cross, should be bestowed, accompanied by miraculous gifts, on the newly founded Church at Pentecost..."
    —Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis
    Yet when Our Lord said that He would send the Paraclete, such a precondition does not seem obvious to me.
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    "But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me. And you shall give testimony, because you are with me from the beginning."
    —Gospel of St. John 15:26-27
    Could someone please provide a more definitive, accurate answer?
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #1 on: March 02, 2022, 12:14:21 AM »
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    • Perhaps I am being over-simplistic, but if Our Lady was with the apostles at Pentecost, did she not receive the Holy Ghost at that time?  Can it be said that everyone there "received the sacrament of confirmation" directly from the Holy Ghost Himself?

    If so, whether she "needed" confirmation or not, would be beside the point.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #2 on: March 02, 2022, 05:11:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on March 02, 2022, 12:14:21 AM
    Perhaps I am being over-simplistic, but if Our Lady was with the apostles at Pentecost, did she not receive the Holy Ghost at that time?  Can it be said that everyone there "received the sacrament of confirmation" directly from the Holy Ghost Himself?

    If so, whether she "needed" confirmation or not, would be beside the point.
    Yes this. I would say that since Our Lady did not even "need" the sacrament of baptism, She did not "need" confirmation.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #3 on: March 02, 2022, 05:54:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 02, 2022, 05:11:49 AM
    Yes this. I would say that since Our Lady did not even "need" the sacrament of baptism, She did not "need" confirmation.

    Oh, Our Lady needed the Sacrament of Baptism.  You should realize, being a Feeneyite, that the Sacrament has other effects other than removing the guilt of Original Sin.  We are incorporated into the Body of Christ through the character of Baptism and made members of the Church.  It would not be fitting for Our Lady not to become a member of the Church.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #4 on: March 02, 2022, 06:58:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 02, 2022, 05:54:25 AM
    Oh, Our Lady needed the Sacrament of Baptism.  You should realize, being a Feeneyite, that the Sacrament has other effects other than removing the guilt of Original Sin.  We are incorporated into the Body of Christ through the character of Baptism and made members of the Church.  It would not be fitting for Our Lady not to become a member of the Church.
    I am not so sure, it's something to contemplate I suppose. Consider that Pope Boniface VIII said in Unam Sanctam that outside of the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, being that Our Lady was conceived without sin, if one be so inclined it seems safe to opine that Our Lady was already a member of the Church at her conception, which is to say that the indelible character was already on her soul from the very moment of her conception.

     Then too, we can say that Our Holy Mother had to be a member - and even a representative of the Church in order for her to conceive by the Holy Ghost - and for 9 months carry Christ, who is the Church. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #5 on: March 02, 2022, 07:07:22 AM »
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    • Quote
    I am not so sure, it's something to contemplate I suppose. Consider that Pope Boniface VIII said in Unam Sanctam that outside of the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, being that Our Lady was conceived without sin, if one be so inclined it seems safe to opine that Our Lady was already a member of the Church at her conception, which is to say that the indelible character was already on her soul from the very moment of her conception.

    Then too, we can say that Our Holy Mother had to be a member - and even a representative of the Church in order for her to conceive by the Holy Ghost - and for 9 months carry Christ, who is the Church.
    The Church wasn't instituted until Pentecost.  Our Lady was born under the Old Law, and so was Our Lord.  She still needed to be baptized when the Church began because She needed a Savior in order to enter heaven, as She called Christ in the Magnificat prayer.  Our Lady was sinless so She didn't need a Redeemer but She also submitted to the Old Laws of purification due to humility.  Thus, She received baptism so She could enter heaven but also as an act of humility.

    According to tradition going back to the second century (docuмented by renowned Scripture scholar Cornelius a Lapide), Christ baptized the Blessed Virgin Mary.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #6 on: March 02, 2022, 07:11:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 02, 2022, 07:07:22 AM
    I am not so sure, it's something to contemplate I suppose. Consider that Pope Boniface VIII said in Unam Sanctam that outside of the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, being that Our Lady was conceived without sin, if one be so inclined it seems safe to opine that Our Lady was already a member of the Church at her conception, which is to say that the indelible character was already on her soul from the very moment of her conception.

     Then too, we can say that Our Holy Mother had to be a member - and even a representative of the Church in order for her to conceive by the Holy Ghost - and for 9 months carry Christ, who is the Church.
    My feelings exactly :laugh1:
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #7 on: March 02, 2022, 07:16:26 AM »
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    • I'm pretty sure the effects of baptism were applied by God to Our Lady at her conception, and she was only conditionally baptized later once the Sacrament was established. The same then would be the case for confirmation. 
    I forget where I read this (maybe Scotus?)
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #8 on: March 02, 2022, 07:17:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 02, 2022, 07:07:22 AM
    I am not so sure, it's something to contemplate I suppose. Consider that Pope Boniface VIII said in Unam Sanctam that outside of the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, being that Our Lady was conceived without sin, if one be so inclined it seems safe to opine that Our Lady was already a member of the Church at her conception, which is to say that the indelible character was already on her soul from the very moment of her conception.

     Then too, we can say that Our Holy Mother had to be a member - and even a representative of the Church in order for her to conceive by the Holy Ghost - and for 9 months carry Christ, who is the Church.

    I'm not sure that Our Lady could have been a Member of the Church, a Member of Christ, before the Incarnation.  Membership in Christ is incorporation into Christ.  Nevertheless, Our Lord did take flesh from her, and with no genetic contribution from a male (which is a separate mystery, about how Our Lady's DNA was converted to the male DNA of Our Lord).  Nevertheless, my point is that freedom from Original Sin is not the only requirement for Membership in the Church.  Even the proponents of Baptism of Desire (such as Msgr. Fenton) admit this, that the character of the Sacrament is required for Membership in the Church.  We know of course that Our Lady was baptized, even as Our Lord saw fit to be baptized by St. John the Baptist.  Could Our Lady have received this character miraculously?  With God all things are possible.  But it's really speculation.  We could say that she was already in a sense incorporated into Christ in that she had the flesh which Our Lord Himself would take up (with some mysterious modification to her DNA that made Him a male).
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #9 on: March 02, 2022, 07:19:22 AM »
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    • I edited my post.  Original was an error.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #10 on: March 02, 2022, 07:21:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: DigitalLogos on March 02, 2022, 07:16:26 AM
    I'm pretty sure the effects of baptism were applied by God to Our Lady at her conception, and she was only conditionally baptized later once the Sacrament was established. The same then would be the case for confirmation.
    I forget where I read this (maybe Scotus?)

    Well, she wouldn't have been "conditionally" baptized.  If she already had the Sacramental character at her conception, then for her to be baptized would not have been appropriate, as it's considered a sacrilege to re-confer Baptism on somehow who had already received it.  She would, in your view, have been "ceremonially" baptized, which I don't think would have been appropriate.

    This is tied to the purely speculative question of whether, had she died before Our Lord's Passion, Death, and Resurrection, whether she would have entered the beatific vision or waited in Limbo along with the other OT just.

    We'll not know this until we die.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #11 on: March 02, 2022, 07:24:03 AM »
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    • Since the Sacramental character is in fact incorporation into the Body of Christ, one could argue that for Our Lady, she was already incorporated into Christ, since Christ's body was already within her (so a kind of reverse incorporation).  Hard to say.  If that were the case, however, then she probably would not have been Baptized, since it's not appropriate to confer the Sacrament meaninglessly.  It's long been considered a sacrilege against the Sacrament to confer it on someone who already had the Baptismal character.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #12 on: March 02, 2022, 07:32:04 AM »
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    • The Church wasn't instituted until Pentecost so there's no way She was baptized at Her birth.  Our Lady was born under the Old Law, and so was Our Lord.  She still needed to be baptized when the Church began because She needed a Savior in order to enter heaven, as She called Christ Her Savior in the Magnificat prayer.  Our Lady was sinless so She didn't need a Redeemer (one aspect of baptism) but She also submitted to the Old Laws of purification due to humility.  Thus, She received baptism so She could enter heaven (a different aspect of Baptism) but also as an act of humility.

    According to tradition going back to the second century (docuмented by renowned Scripture scholar Cornelius a Lapide), Christ baptized the Blessed Virgin Mary.  This is what i've heard; i've not proved it.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #13 on: March 02, 2022, 08:12:30 AM »
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    • Mystical City of God Vol III
    319: The most blessed Lady also asked Him for
    the Sacrament of Baptism, which He had now instituted,
    and which He had promised Her before. In order that
    this might be administered with a dignity becoming as
    well the Son as the Mother, an innumerable host
    of angelic spirits descended from heaven in visible
    forms. Attended by them, Christ himself baptized his
    purest Mother. Immediately the voice of the eternal
    Father was heard saying: "This is my beloved
    Daughter, in whom I take delight." The incarnate
    Word said: "This is my Mother, much beloved, whom
    I have chosen and who will assist Me in all my works."
    And the Holy Ghost added: "This is my Spouse,
    chosen among thousands." The purest Lady felt and
    received such great and numerous effects of grace in her
    soul, that no human words can describe them; for She

    was exalted to new heights of grace and her holy soul
    was made resplendent with new and exquisite beauty
    of heaven. She received the characteristic token im-
    pressed by this Sacrament, namely, that of the children
    of Christ in his holy Church. In addition to the ordi-
    nary effects of this Sacrament (outside of the remis-
    sion of sins, of which She stood in no need), She merited
    especial graces on account of the humility with which
    She submitted to this Sacrament of purification. By it
    She accuмulated blessings like to those of her divine
    Son, with only this difference: that She received an in
    crease of grace, which was not possible in Christ There
    upon the humble Mother broke out in a canticle of praise
    with the holy angels, and prostrate before her divine
    Son, She thanked Him for the most efficacious graces
    She had received in this Sacrament.
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Did the Virgin Mary need the Sacrament of Confirmation?
    « Reply #14 on: March 02, 2022, 08:53:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 02, 2022, 07:24:03 AM
    Since the Sacramental character is in fact incorporation into the Body of Christ, one could argue that for Our Lady, she was already incorporated into Christ, since Christ's body was already within her (so a kind of reverse incorporation).  Hard to say.  If that were the case, however, then she probably would not have been Baptized, since it's not appropriate to confer the Sacrament meaninglessly.  It's long been considered a sacrilege against the Sacrament to confer it on someone who already had the Baptismal character.
    I'd argue that she received it out of obedience to God's will. Maybe the sacrament gave her more graces to avoid ever sinning. I know Mary never sinned but I remember being taught it would have been possible for her to sin just like Eve but she cooperated with God's grace and didn't.
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    I recant many opinions on the crisis in the Church and moral theology that I have espoused on here from at least 2019-2021 don't take my postings from that time as well as 2022 possibly too seriously.
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