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Author Topic: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?  (Read 2448 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2025, 08:06:31 PM »
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  • Why would a Traditional Catholic even use this argument?  What Montini WANTED was for everyone to accept Vatican II, use the NOM, etc. ... and it's why he suspended SSPX and Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Regardless, as we don't care ... the closing lines of Montini's promulgation of NOM Father Cekada pointed out was exactly how QP ended, by superceding / replacing all legislation.  That does spell out intent.  He didn't have to spell out Quo Primum by name, since there could be something else out there that he missed.  This way he doesn't have to name them all.

    But this hand-wriging about legal technicalities.  It's clear that Montini and all the V2 papal claimants have insisted upon everyone using the NOM.

    This reminds me of the nonsense about Ratzinger's ministerium vs. munus ... where specific terms are required to spell out your intention.  Canon Law lays down no such requirements.  He could have said, in the vernacular, "I'm doing being pope.  See ya, guys.  Find someone else." ... and that's a valid resignation.  Law only says he has to make it reasonably clear to those around him.

    Same thing here, where it's very obvious that Montini intended to replace Tridentine Mass with his concoction.  Nobody doubts that.  And IF you wanted to doubt it, just check with the Holy Office.
    Let’s analyze the “cui bono?” Of it all. 

    1.  Did Paul 6 have a benefit to lying that the old rite was abolished?  Of course.  He had every reason to lie that Quo Primum was over. 

    But…had QP really been outlawed and the old rite abolished then why has new-Rome (for decades) not formally declared the sspx as schismatic?  Because if QP is gone, then the entire Trad movement is schismatic.  They could’ve issued a blanket excommunication on every Trad to force compliance with V2. 

    In fact, the opposite happened.  New Rome had to admit that Trads are “not in full communion” (a made up threat/label) in order to explain how/why a valid/schismatic/legal group of Catholics could just ignore V2/new mass.  And their explanation for why Trads aren’t “regularized” has never made sense.  

    If QP was gone, the new-Rome would t have to jump through all these hoops.  

    2.  Fr Cekada had every reason to say that QP is gone, because he is a dogmatic sede who wants to argue That non-sede-Trads “have to follow their heretic pope”.  He’s always been on the warpath against +ABL/sspx, so his illogic arguments are consistent with his views. 

    3.  If QP was over, why did Benedict say it wasn’t?  Isn’t there MORE benefit if Benedict could say, “Quo Primum is over, but I’ll bring the Latin mass back.”  But he said the exact opposite.  He undercut his own arguments on the new mass by saying that QP is “always allowed.”  Hence, he indirectly admitted that the new mass is optional.  There is 0% benefit for him or new-Rome, in admitting this. 

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #31 on: June 05, 2025, 11:04:41 PM »
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  • Answer to thread title question:— Centuries after a the words of a canonized Pope and Saint, don’t you think other holy popes and saints, like Pius X would have spoken out? 


    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #32 on: June 05, 2025, 11:53:12 PM »
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  • Papal letter Ex Quo
    Benedict XIV 1756
    ",,,
    Accordingly the Roman Pontiffs have often had to see to it that Missals, Rituals, Breviaries, and Martyrologies were newly issued in improved editions after appropriate corrections."..
    ******

    "...It is well known that the Church has no right whatsoever to innovate anything touching on the substance of the sacraments."

    Pope St. Pius X, Apostolic Letter EX QUO,
    December 26, 1910
    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 05:07:28 AM »
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  • For those that falsely claim that Montini did not abrogate the TLM:

    If Montini was pope, he 100% had right to do this. Good thing is that he was not the pope.


    …[T]here are those who, under the pretext of a greater fidelity to the Church and the Magisterium, systematically refuse the teaching of the Council itself, its application and the reforms that stem from it, its gradual application by the Apostolic See and the Episcopal Conferences, under our authority, willed by Christ. Discredit is cast upon the authority of the Church in the name of a Tradition, to which respect is professed only materially and verbally. The faithful are drawn away from the bonds of obedience to the See of Peter and to their rightful Bishops; today’s authority is rejected in the name of yesterday’s. And the fact is all the more serious in that the opposition of which we are speaking is not only encouraged by some priests, but is led by a Prelate, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who nevertheless still has our respect.

    It is so painful to take note of this; but how can we not see in such an attitude—whatever may be these people’s intentions—the placing of themselves outside obedience and communion with the Successor of Peter and therefore outside the Church?

    For this, unfortunately, is the logical consequence, when, that is, it is held as preferable to disobey with the pretext of preserving one’s faith intact, and of working in one’s way for the preservation of the Catholic Church, while at the same time refusing to give her effective obedience. And this is said openly! It is even affirmed that the Second Vatican Council is not binding; that the faith would also be in danger because of the reforms and post-conciliar directives, that one has the duty to disobey in order to preserve certain traditions. What traditions? Is it for this group [=Lefebvrists], not the Pope, not the College of Bishops, not the Ecuмenical Council, to decide which among the innumerable traditions must be considered as the norm of faith? As you see, Venerable Brothers, such an attitude sets itself up as a judge of that divine will which placed Peter and his lawful Successors at the head of the Church to confirm the brethren in the faith, and to feed the universal flock (cf. Lk 22:32; Jn 21:15 ff.), and which established him as the guarantor and custodian of the deposit of faith.

    And this is all the more serious, in particular, when division is introduced precisely where congregavit nos in unum Christi amor [the love of Christ has gathered us into one], in the Liturgy and the Eucharistic Sacrifice, by the refusing of obedience to the norms laid down in the liturgical sphere. It is in the name of Tradition that we ask all our sons and daughters, all the Catholic communities, to celebrate with dignity and fervor the renewed liturgy. The adoption of the new Ordo Missae [order of the Mass] is certainly not left to the free choice of priests or faithful. The instruction of 14 June 1971 has provided for, with the authorization of the Ordinary, the celebration of the Mass in the old form only by aged and infirm priests, who offer the divine Sacrifice sine popolo [without people attending]. The new Ordo was promulgated to take the place of the old, after mature deliberation, following upon the requests of the Second Vatican Council. In no different way did our holy Predecessor Pius V make obligatory the Missal reformed under his authority, following the Council of Trent.

    With the same supreme authority that comes from Christ Jesus, we call for the same obedience to all the other liturgical, disciplinary and pastoral reforms which have matured in these years in the implementation of the Council decrees. Any initiative which tries to obstruct them cannot claim the prerogative of rendering a service to the Church; in fact it causes the Church serious damage.

    Various times, directly and through our collaborators and other friendly persons, we have called the attention of Archbishop Lefebvre to the seriousness of his behaviour, the irregularity of his principal present initiatives, the inconsistency and often falsity of the doctrinal positions on which he bases this behaviour and these initiatives, and the damage that accrues to the entire Church because of them.

    It is with profound sadness but with paternal hope that we once more turn to this confrère of ours, to his collaborators and to those who have let themselves be carried away by them. Oh, certainly, we believe that many of these faithful—at least in the beginning—were in good faith: we also understand their sentimental attachment to habitual forms of worship or of discipline that for a long time had been for them a spiritual support and in which they had found spiritual sustenance. But we are confident that they will reflect with serenity, without closed minds, and they will admit that they can find today the support and sustenance that they are seeking in the renewed forms that the Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council and we ourself have decreed as being necessary for the good of the Church, her progress in the modern world, and her unity. We therefore exhort yet once again all these brethren and sons and daughters of ours; we beseech them to become aware of the profound wounds that they otherwise cause to the Church, and we invite them again to reflect on Christ’s serious warnings about the unity of the Church (cf. Jn 17:21 ff) and on the obedience that is due to the lawful Pastor placed by him over the universal flock, as a sign of the obedience due to the Father and to the Son (cf. Lk 10:16). We await them with an open heart, with arms ready to embrace them; may they know how to rediscover in humility and edification, to the joy of the whole People of God, the way of unity and of love!

    (Antipope Paul VI, Allocution to the Consistory, May 24, 1976; Translation from L’Osservatore Romano, June 3, 1976.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 09:08:14 AM »
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  • For those that falsely claim that Montini did not abrogate the TLM:

    If Montini was pope, he 100% had right to do this. Good thing is that he was not the pope.


    …[T]here are those who, under the pretext of a greater fidelity to the Church and the Magisterium, systematically refuse the teaching of the Council itself, its application and the reforms that stem from it, its gradual application by the Apostolic See and the Episcopal Conferences, under our authority, willed by Christ. Discredit is cast upon the authority of the Church in the name of a Tradition, to which respect is professed only materially and verbally. The faithful are drawn away from the bonds of obedience to the See of Peter and to their rightful Bishops; today’s authority is rejected in the name of yesterday’s. And the fact is all the more serious in that the opposition of which we are speaking is not only encouraged by some priests, but is led by a Prelate, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who nevertheless still has our respect.

    It is so painful to take note of this; but how can we not see in such an attitude—whatever may be these people’s intentions—the placing of themselves outside obedience and communion with the Successor of Peter and therefore outside the Church?

    For this, unfortunately, is the logical consequence, when, that is, it is held as preferable to disobey with the pretext of preserving one’s faith intact, and of working in one’s way for the preservation of the Catholic Church, while at the same time refusing to give her effective obedience. And this is said openly! It is even affirmed that the Second Vatican Council is not binding; that the faith would also be in danger because of the reforms and post-conciliar directives, that one has the duty to disobey in order to preserve certain traditions. What traditions? Is it for this group [=Lefebvrists], not the Pope, not the College of Bishops, not the Ecuмenical Council, to decide which among the innumerable traditions must be considered as the norm of faith? As you see, Venerable Brothers, such an attitude sets itself up as a judge of that divine will which placed Peter and his lawful Successors at the head of the Church to confirm the brethren in the faith, and to feed the universal flock (cf. Lk 22:32; Jn 21:15 ff.), and which established him as the guarantor and custodian of the deposit of faith.

    And this is all the more serious, in particular, when division is introduced precisely where congregavit nos in unum Christi amor [the love of Christ has gathered us into one], in the Liturgy and the Eucharistic Sacrifice, by the refusing of obedience to the norms laid down in the liturgical sphere. It is in the name of Tradition that we ask all our sons and daughters, all the Catholic communities, to celebrate with dignity and fervor the renewed liturgy. The adoption of the new Ordo Missae [order of the Mass] is certainly not left to the free choice of priests or faithful. The instruction of 14 June 1971 has provided for, with the authorization of the Ordinary, the celebration of the Mass in the old form only by aged and infirm priests, who offer the divine Sacrifice sine popolo [without people attending]. The new Ordo was promulgated to take the place of the old, after mature deliberation, following upon the requests of the Second Vatican Council. In no different way did our holy Predecessor Pius V make obligatory the Missal reformed under his authority, following the Council of Trent.

    With the same supreme authority that comes from Christ Jesus, we call for the same obedience to all the other liturgical, disciplinary and pastoral reforms which have matured in these years in the implementation of the Council decrees. Any initiative which tries to obstruct them cannot claim the prerogative of rendering a service to the Church; in fact it causes the Church serious damage.

    Various times, directly and through our collaborators and other friendly persons, we have called the attention of Archbishop Lefebvre to the seriousness of his behaviour, the irregularity of his principal present initiatives, the inconsistency and often falsity of the doctrinal positions on which he bases this behaviour and these initiatives, and the damage that accrues to the entire Church because of them.

    It is with profound sadness but with paternal hope that we once more turn to this confrère of ours, to his collaborators and to those who have let themselves be carried away by them. Oh, certainly, we believe that many of these faithful—at least in the beginning—were in good faith: we also understand their sentimental attachment to habitual forms of worship or of discipline that for a long time had been for them a spiritual support and in which they had found spiritual sustenance. But we are confident that they will reflect with serenity, without closed minds, and they will admit that they can find today the support and sustenance that they are seeking in the renewed forms that the Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council and we ourself have decreed as being necessary for the good of the Church, her progress in the modern world, and her unity. We therefore exhort yet once again all these brethren and sons and daughters of ours; we beseech them to become aware of the profound wounds that they otherwise cause to the Church, and we invite them again to reflect on Christ’s serious warnings about the unity of the Church (cf. Jn 17:21 ff) and on the obedience that is due to the lawful Pastor placed by him over the universal flock, as a sign of the obedience due to the Father and to the Son (cf. Lk 10:16). We await them with an open heart, with arms ready to embrace them; may they know how to rediscover in humility and edification, to the joy of the whole People of God, the way of unity and of love!

    (Antipope Paul VI, Allocution to the Consistory, May 24, 1976; Translation from L’Osservatore Romano, June 3, 1976.
    The missal of St Pius V simply codified the NON-ESSENTIAL aspects of the liturgy.  The new mass changes both non-essential and ESSENTIAL aspects.  The 2 papal acts are incomparable.  


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 01:47:29 PM »
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  • For those that falsely claim that Montini did not abrogate the TLM:

    If Montini was pope, he 100% had right to do this. Good thing is that he was not the pope.


    …[T]here are those who, under the pretext of a greater fidelity to the Church and the Magisterium, systematically refuse the teaching of the Council itself, its application and the reforms that stem from it, its gradual application by the Apostolic See and the Episcopal Conferences, under our authority, willed by Christ. Discredit is cast upon the authority of the Church in the name of a Tradition, to which respect is professed only materially and verbally. The faithful are drawn away from the bonds of obedience to the See of Peter and to their rightful Bishops; today’s authority is rejected in the name of yesterday’s. And the fact is all the more serious in that the opposition of which we are speaking is not only encouraged by some priests, but is led by a Prelate, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who nevertheless still has our respect....
    It would definitely be TLDR to address all of the errors in this Allocution, suffice to post what Pope Pius IX said in Qui Pluribus:

    "Whoever resists authority resists the ordering made by God Himself, consequently achieving his own condemnation; disobeying authority is always sinful except when an order is given which is opposed to the laws of God and the Church.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 05:56:21 PM »
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  • If Montini was pope, he 100% had right to do this. Good thing is that he was not the pope.

    Right ... good thing that he was not.  Well, either that or he was tied up in a dungeon and replaced by a big-eared / crooked-nosed double.  :laugh1: