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Author Topic: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?  (Read 6232 times)

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Offline Clare67

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Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2025, 12:29:51 PM »
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  • Novus Ordo Watch explained this in great detail.  

    https://novusordowatch.org/2024/07/pope-pius5-quo-primum-tridentine-mass-in-perpetuity/

    They show how in perpetuity is used in many other papal docuмents.  

    In conclusion, it doesn't mean what Trads think it means.   

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #16 on: June 05, 2025, 12:54:04 PM »
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  • False.  So you quote Ratzinger as your "authority" (while rejecting 99% of what he says).  Montini clearly stated that the NOM abrogated anything before it.

    Ratzinger was an agent whose job it was to re-absorb the Traditional Catholics (primarily SSPX) via the Motu and then paying some lip-service to the Tridentine Mass and Trad concerns as part of the tactic.  Ganswein admitted as much.
    Pope Benedict XVI was the supreme authority, that you do not accept that fact is irrelevant. That he essentially stated QP was still in force is true, it was never abrogated because it can never be abrogated - which is why pope Paul VI did not abrogate it. It's not complicated.



      
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #17 on: June 05, 2025, 01:24:45 PM »
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  • I preface my answer with all of this because I don't want to sound like I'm throwing anyone under the bus when I say the Quo Primum justification for rejecting the Novus Ordo and continuing to use the tridentine Mass is simply not correct. First of all it is not correct to say that a pope can make a law saying some liturgical norm must be used forever. Secondly it is not correct that St. Pius V even intended to do that anyway; when he said the tridentine missal must be used forever, he simply meant the law was permanent in that it had no expiration date. He was not saying no future pope could change what he had established. That would only be possible if it were a matter of dogmatic definition or irreformable teaching on faith or morals, which a iiturgical norm is not. Thirdly, it is not true to say that Paul VI did not promulgate the Novus Ordo, or did not tell anyone they had to use it. Paul VI promulgated the Novus Ordo missae in a similar way to how St. Pius V promulgated the tridentine Mass.

    Fr. Cekada discussed all of these errors in some of his articles, one of the best of which directly addresses your questions. Because yes, you are correct that this argument is problematic and should not be used.

    So, to answer the question at the beginning of the thread as to whether St. Pius V exceeded his authority, the answer is of course not. It is only people now who misunderstand the nature of what he commanded and its binding force.
    You are reducing the Church's Liturgy to "some liturgical norm," this is what they did at V2. 

    It was at the direction of the Sacred Council of Trent (which don't forget, was at a time when the Mass, Sacraments, and actually the whole Church was under attack by Luther and the other heretics) that PPV set about the "preservation of a pure liturgy," which is the foundation of, and what the law of QP is all about. 

    The preservation of *all* things pertaining to our holy religion, including the Church's liturgy, is the duty of popes, it's their main job, it's what they are supposed to do one after the other in succession, in perpetuity. So  the law of Quo Primum was established to insure the preservation of the Mass until the end of time under penalty of "the wrath of Almighty God and the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul." 

    This law can only always remain in effect and can never be abrogated because of what it is protecting.       
     

     
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #18 on: June 05, 2025, 01:35:36 PM »
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  • False.  So you quote Ratzinger as your "authority" (while rejecting 99% of what he says).  Montini clearly stated that the NOM abrogated anything before it.

    Ratzinger was an agent whose job it was to re-absorb the Traditional Catholics (primarily SSPX) via the Motu and then paying some lip-service to the Tridentine Mass and Trad concerns as part of the tactic.  Ganswein admitted as much.
    Montini can say whatever.  What matters is what the law says.  Ones intent is irrelevant if the law doesn’t spell out your intent.  If Montini had wanted to get rid of Quo Primum, then he needed to be much, much clearer in his law.  

    JP2 had a commission study the matter (because it wasn’t clear) and the commission said QP wasn’t abrogated.  Then Benedict confirmed such in 2006.

    The Modernists love to write ambiguous stuff and claim it means something else.  Montini was using the same tactic.  

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #19 on: June 05, 2025, 01:48:32 PM »
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  • Montini can say whatever.  What matters is what the law says.  Ones intent is irrelevant if the law doesn’t spell out your intent.  If Montini had wanted to get rid of Quo Primum, then he needed to be much, much clearer in his law. 

    Why would a Traditional Catholic even use this argument?  What Montini WANTED was for everyone to accept Vatican II, use the NOM, etc. ... and it's why he suspended SSPX and Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Regardless, as we don't care ... the closing lines of Montini's promulgation of NOM Father Cekada pointed out was exactly how QP ended, by superceding / replacing all legislation.  That does spell out intent.  He didn't have to spell out Quo Primum by name, since there could be something else out there that he missed.  This way he doesn't have to name them all.

    But this hand-wriging about legal technicalities.  It's clear that Montini and all the V2 papal claimants have insisted upon everyone using the NOM.

    This reminds me of the nonsense about Ratzinger's ministerium vs. munus ... where specific terms are required to spell out your intention.  Canon Law lays down no such requirements.  He could have said, in the vernacular, "I'm doing being pope.  See ya, guys.  Find someone else." ... and that's a valid resignation.  Law only says he has to make it reasonably clear to those around him.

    Same thing here, where it's very obvious that Montini intended to replace Tridentine Mass with his concoction.  Nobody doubts that.  And IF you wanted to doubt it, just check with the Holy Office.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #20 on: June 05, 2025, 01:52:23 PM »
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  • Novus Ordo Watch explained this in great detail. 

    https://novusordowatch.org/2024/07/pope-pius5-quo-primum-tridentine-mass-in-perpetuity/

    They show how in perpetuity is used in many other papal docuмents. 

    In conclusion, it doesn't mean what Trads think it means. 

    Right ... this is what I said above also, where it just means that there's no end date.  Legislation often explicitly adds a START date, and sometimes also has an END DATE.  This expression simply means that there's no END DATE, including no implicit end date with the death of the current pope.

    As per the link above ...
    Quote
    Indeed, it turns out that in such papal legislation, the phrase “in perpetuity” simply means that the law being imposed has no automatic “expiration date”, so to speak — it does not mean that it can never be changed or rescinded by the competent authority, that is, by another (or even the same) Pope. In the case of Quo Primum, the “in perpetuity” clause quite simply means that the Apostolic Constitution remains in effect indefinitely, that is, until a future Pope changes it. In other words, it is not simply a temporary edict but a real, permanent law for the entire Church.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #21 on: June 05, 2025, 02:00:40 PM »
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  • https://traditionalmass.org/images/articles/P6Illegally.pdf

    Quote
    Paul VI Revokes Quo Primum

    Father Laisney trots out yet another old canard: the tale that Paul VI did not abrogate (revoke) St. Pius V’s Bull Quo Primum. Advocates of this position sometimes cite a passage in the Code which states that “a more recent law given by competent authority, abrogates a former law, if it expressly orders abrogation.” Paul VI, the argument goes, did not mention Quo Primum by name, so he did not expressly abrogate it. Quo Primum, then, never lost its force, and we are all still free to celebrate the old Mass.

    But proponents of this notion are engaging in wishful thinking.  Expressly, in the canon quoted above, does not just mean “by name.” A legislator may “expressly” revoke a law in another way — and this is what occurred here, when Paul VI, after he gave his volumus to the New Mass, added the following clause: “...notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the Apostolic Constitutions and Ordinances of Our Predecessors, and other prescriptions, even those worthy of special mention and amendment.”  This clause expressly abrogates Quo Primum.

    First, the Bull Quo Primum falls into the category of the most solemn type of pontifical legal Act — a Papal or Apostolic Constitution. And in the passage quoted from Paul VI’s Apostolic Constitution, he specifically revokes the “Apostolic Constitutions” of his predecessors. Second, in order to revoke a law expressly, a pope is not required to mention it by name. Express revocation also takes place, says  the canonist Cicognani, if the legislator inserts “abrogatory or derogatory  clauses, as is common in decrees, rescripts, and other pontifical acts:  notwithstanding anything to the contrary, notwithstanding in any respect anything to the contrary, though worthy of special mention.”

    Paul VI, in other words, used the exact type of language required to  expressly revoke a prior law. And in so doing, Paul VI again used some  of the same phrases St. Pius V employed in Quo Primum to revoke liturgical laws of his predecessors: “Notwithstanding preceding Apostolic constitutions and ordinances… and whatever laws and customs there be to the contrary.”  Again, if this language worked in 1570, it also worked in 1969. In light  of all the foregoing, one cannot continue to promote the myth that Paul VI’s  legislation did not expressly abrogate Quo Primum.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #22 on: June 05, 2025, 02:03:12 PM »
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  • You are reducing the Church's Liturgy to "some liturgical norm," this is what they did at V2.

    It was at the direction of the Sacred Council of Trent (which don't forget, was at a time when the Mass, Sacraments, and actually the whole Church was under attack by Luther and the other heretics) that PPV set about the "preservation of a pure liturgy," which is the foundation of, and what the law of QP is all about.

    The preservation of *all* things pertaining to our holy religion, including the Church's liturgy, is the duty of popes, it's their main job, it's what they are supposed to do one after the other in succession, in perpetuity. So  the law of Quo Primum was established to insure the preservation of the Mass until the end of time under penalty of "the wrath of Almighty God and the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul." 

    This law can only always remain in effect and can never be abrogated because of what it is protecting.     
    .

    Yes and no. Yes, the doctrine involved in the rite of the Mass, which was being attacked by protestants in the time of St. Pius V, is perpetual and unchangeable. No, any particular rite of Mass is not unchangeable. In fact, the tridentine Mass was changed several times, with minor additions added to it over the centuries. It is not something that goes back to the Apostles unchanged, and it is not a matter of dogma.

    The problem with the new Mass is not that it is a new missal, as the Quo Primum argument asserts. The problem is that it contains elements that contradict Catholic doctrine on the Mass, and is therefore heretical.

    So yes, we must reject the Novus Ordo, but not because it is a new missal. We must reject it because it contradicts Catholic dogma.


    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #23 on: June 05, 2025, 02:21:06 PM »
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  • https://riposte-catholique.fr/archives/203030
    Google translation.
    "...
    The name of Brother Michael Ghislieri—Pius V—graces the frontispiece of the Roman Missal and Breviary because it was under his authority that the revision of the liturgical books, expressly reserved for the Holy See by the Council of Trent, was completed. In addition to these merits in the field of liturgy, Saint Pius V has the glory of having been the Pope of the reform that, for two centuries already, the Pontiffs, his predecessors, the councils, a great number of bishops, and saints of that complex period commonly called the Renaissance, had been vainly calling it.

    Saint Pius V is therefore the Pope of ecclesiastical reform; not in the sense that he was the first to desire and inaugurate it, since, when he ascended the throne of Saint Peter, the Council of Trent had already been completed for some time.  But he was the Pope of reform in that, by his authority and example, he definitively set the Roman Curia and the entire episcopate on the path to that salutary revival of the ecclesiastical spirit, which many of his predecessors, while desiring it in their hearts, had been unable to sustain for lack of courage and constancy.

    It is surprising that Saint Pius V, from a modest family and a poor Dominican friar, was able to rise so high for the good of the Church. But he was a saint, and the instruments of his power were the pursuit of the glory of God alone and assiduous prayer. Above all, through prayer, he triumphed over the insolence of the Turks and sanctified the people entrusted to his care.


    *****
    Can we acknowledge that St. Piux V was not doing his will, but in fact was accomplishing the directives of the Council of Trent?.  That's a very good start. Then, over the centuries  the Church followed Quo Primum. Sure St Pius X modified the missal, but Fr. Hesse says that St Pius X explained the changes at the beginning of his missal, thereby assuring everyone that the Mass was not impacted. If the Entire Roman Church honored and followed QPrimum, looks like it had all the requirements that such an authority would have needed.
    Then along comes Vatican II, and all gets " relativized", doing the devil's work...confusion ad nauseam.
    God commands the TRUTH. God doesn't change.
    The Mass is part of the "Lex orandi , lex credendi". The Truth cannot change  so St.  Pius V did well to secure the Tridentine rite.  In 1568 AD , he was very strict in "Quod a Nobis" , so it was a TRADITIONAL AUTHORITY...Imo
    St Pius V, pray for us+
    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #24 on: June 05, 2025, 02:40:50 PM »
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  • Yes and no. Yes, the doctrine involved in the rite of the Mass, which was being attacked by protestants in the time of St. Pius V, is perpetual and unchangeable. No, any particular rite of Mass is not unchangeable. In fact, the tridentine Mass was changed several times, with minor additions added to it over the centuries. It is not something that goes back to the Apostles unchanged, and it is not a matter of dogma.

    The problem with the new Mass is not that it is a new missal, as the Quo Primum argument asserts. The problem is that it contains elements that contradict Catholic doctrine on the Mass, and is therefore heretical.

    So yes, we must reject the Novus Ordo, but not because it is a new missal. We must reject it because it contradicts Catholic dogma.
    Very true, we reject it for what it is - no matter who wants us to embrace it.

    Yet, the very reason QP exists, is two fold, 1) to preserve the Mass of the Roman Rite. 2) That for the celebration of the Mass in the Roman Rite, only that Mass was to be celebrated in perpetuity without any fear of censure or penalty etc,.

    It remains the Law and cannot be abrogated because it says quite clearly: "We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this  Missal, and that "*this present docuмent* cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its  full force..."

    Where he says "No one whosoever" includes the pope, where he says  "This present docuмent," he is referring to the Law of Quo Primum that cannot be revoked, and on that account preserves the Mass of the Roman Rite.

    He most certainly intended to bind all future popes, and all future popes until PPVI did bind themselves to this law - why wouldn't they? It's part of their duty to preserve the Roman Liturgy.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #25 on: June 05, 2025, 02:48:56 PM »
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  • Why would a Traditional Catholic even use this argument?  What Montini WANTED was for everyone to accept Vatican II, use the NOM, etc. ... and it's why he suspended SSPX and Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Regardless, as we don't care ... the closing lines of Montini's promulgation of NOM Father Cekada pointed out was exactly how QP ended, by superceding / replacing all legislation.  That does spell out intent.  He didn't have to spell out Quo Primum by name, since there could be something else out there that he missed.  This way he doesn't have to name them all.

    But this hand-wriging about legal technicalities.  It's clear that Montini and all the V2 papal claimants have insisted upon everyone using the NOM.

    This reminds me of the nonsense about Ratzinger's ministerium vs. munus ... where specific terms are required to spell out your intention.  Canon Law lays down no such requirements.  He could have said, in the vernacular, "I'm doing being pope.  See ya, guys.  Find someone else." ... and that's a valid resignation.  Law only says he has to make it reasonably clear to those around him.

    Same thing here, where it's very obvious that Montini intended to replace Tridentine Mass with his concoction.  Nobody doubts that.  And IF you wanted to doubt it, just check with the Holy Office.
    You lost me at “Fr Cekeda said…”.   God rest his soul, but everything he did was agenda driven.  I trust 0% of anything he wrote.  He’s a horrible theologian and a worse lawyer. 


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #26 on: June 05, 2025, 04:18:59 PM »
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  • Very true, we reject it for what it is - no matter who wants us to embrace it.

    Yet, the very reason QP exists, is two fold, 1) to preserve the Mass of the Roman Rite. 2) That for the celebration of the Mass in the Roman Rite, only that Mass was to be celebrated in perpetuity without any fear of censure or penalty etc,.

    It remains the Law and cannot be abrogated because it says quite clearly: "We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is forced or coerced to alter this  Missal, and that "*this present docuмent* cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its  full force..."

    Where he says "No one whosoever" includes the pope, where he says  "This present docuмent," he is referring to the Law of Quo Primum that cannot be revoked, and on that account preserves the Mass of the Roman Rite.

    He most certainly intended to bind all future popes, and all future popes until PPVI did bind themselves to this law - why wouldn't they? It's part of their duty to preserve the Roman Liturgy.
    .

    First of all, I'm curious why you think Paul VI was able to violate Quo Primum if you think Paul VI was a valid pope?

    A pope cannot bind another pope in the future with a law. This is because only a superior can bind someone with legislation, and one pope is not the superior of another -- they all have equal authority.

    This is not to be confused with a doctrinal definition. When a pope teaches doctrine, it is not his own teaching that he is giving, but God's teaching. That is why one pope cannot reverse a dogmatic definition or irreformable teaching of a previous pope -- because it was really God that taught it through the pope.

    This is different from legislation. If a pope makes a law, the Church has to obey it, but it is not something revealed by God. Another pope can change it.

    With regard to the Mass, the Council of Trent gave numerous teachings on the nature of the Mass, all of which are irreformable. No pope can ever reverse the canons of the Council of Trent. And the Novus Ordo violates many of these canons, which is why we rightly reject it.

    It is a mistake to simply reject the Novus Ordo because it violates some liturgical law of a previous pope. The correct reason to reject it is because it violates dogmatic teachings. That is why the Quo Primum argument is wrong. Quo Primum is simply a liturgical norm. The Novus Ordo is evil because it violates the Council of Trent, not because it violates Quo Primum.



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #27 on: June 05, 2025, 05:04:42 PM »
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  • First of all, I'm curious why you think Paul VI was able to violate Quo Primum if you think Paul VI was a valid pope?
    He (and all all his successors so far) was able to violate it because outside of a sense of duty and care for the Church, there was nothing to stop him.  


    Quote
    A pope cannot bind another pope in the future with a law. This is because only a superior can bind someone with legislation, and one pope is not the superior of another -- they all have equal authority.

    This is not to be confused with a doctrinal definition. When a pope teaches doctrine, it is not his own teaching that he is giving, but God's teaching. That is why one pope cannot reverse a dogmatic definition or irreformable teaching of a previous pope -- because it was really God that taught it through the pope.

    This is different from legislation. If a pope makes a law, the Church has to obey it, but it is not something revealed by God. Another pope can change it.

    Popes most certainly can bind another pope with a law. I think it was Pope Gregory I who changed the Sabbath Day from Saturday to Sunday, since then the law to keep holy the Sabbath Day means to keep Sunday holy - another pope cannot change it because even popes are bound to this law, which btw is also a non-doctrinal definition. This same principle applies to the Mass. We can ask, why would a pope want to change the Sabbath Day from Sunday to another day? Same as we can ask why would a pope want to change the Liturgy of the Roman Rite? 

    I think that the argument arises because people do not understand what the Liturgy is or where it came from - which it came from  from Christ and the Apostles. Yes, certain ceremonies and rubrics etc. were added and/or refined along the way, but the mass of PPV is the way God wants to be worshiped in His Church in perpetuity, He certainly never willed it to be replaced with the thing they have now.     

    Actually, QP is really speaking strictly to future popes and hierarchy, and they SHOULD use it as their aid in preserving the Roman Liturgy and against any changes to it. If there is an argument, it's that PPV felt the need to make the law at all. Why did he make the law and mandate that it (and therefore the Mass), remain in force in perpetuity at all if he didn't care that any future pope i.e. "anyone whosoever" can change it?

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #28 on: June 05, 2025, 06:44:51 PM »
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  • It is a mistake to simply reject the Novus Ordo because it violates some liturgical law of a previous pope. The correct reason to reject it is because it violates dogmatic teachings. That is why the Quo Primum argument is wrong. Quo Primum is simply a liturgical norm. The Novus Ordo is evil because it violates the Council of Trent, not because it violates Quo Primum.
    QP was both a liturgical and doctrinal law.  St Pius V said he was codifying the liturgy (legal law) because this Latin rite was the essential rite going back to Pope Gregory the Great (ie doctrinal reasons).  Prior to pope Gregory, the  Latin rite was a fractured rite because of all the persecutions and lack of uniformity.  Gregory codified it the first time.  

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Did Pope St Pius V exceed his authority?
    « Reply #29 on: June 05, 2025, 07:06:08 PM »
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  • Sure St Pius X modified the missal, but Fr. Hesse says that St Pius X explained the changes at the beginning of his missal...

    St. Pius X OBLITERATED the Roman Psalter that dated back to the Patristic period. What he did was within the powers of the Roman Pontiff as dogmatised by the First Vatican Council. He also enjoyed the juridical authority to do so by the same Council. However, did he have a moral right to do this? Some say "yes"; others say "no". What is important to understand is that this was a prudential decision of the Roman Pontiff that could be changed by his successors. Sarto's changes did not affect the Benedictine Psalter or a few other Psalters used by religious orders, nor the Psalter of the Eastern Churches. There is now a movement in some quarters by those bound to return to the historic Roman Psalter even though it is much more burdensome than the Psalter as rearranged by Sarto. This is being promoted through an argument of Tradition.

    None of this in any way affects Sarto's sanctity!

    Sarto's Psalter was replaced in the Novus Ordo by a 4-week Psalter that makes the praying of the Office more like praying litugical minutes rather than liturgical hours. :facepalm:
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila