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Author Topic: Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?  (Read 5156 times)

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Offline St John Evangelist

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Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2016, 07:19:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange
    Sacred Scripture testifies that Christ redeemed us by paying the price, namely, by shedding His blood. But this means to satisfy in the strict sense and not merely metaphorically, namely, by preaching, giving us advice and example, as the apostles did. In the strict sense He died for us by paying the penalty that is due for our sins. This is already evident from the above-quoted scriptural texts[1850] concerning the mystery of redemption considered in a general way. To these must be added the following texts: "Behold the Lamb of God, behold Him who taketh away the sin of the world."[1851] "Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a redemption for many."[1852] "This is My blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins."[1853] "For you are bought with a great price. Glorify and bear God in your body."[1854] "You are bought with a price; be not made the bond-slaves of men."[1855] "Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things as gold or silver..., but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb unspotted and undefiled."[1856] "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."[1857] In a word, as St. Paul says: "Christ died for our sins."[1858]


    http://www.thesumma.info/saviour/saviour62.php


    Offline St John Evangelist

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #16 on: July 28, 2016, 07:28:46 PM »
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  • The idea that Christ satisfied for our sins by the superabundant love He showed to God makes no sense whatsoever. Christ loved God subabundantly from all eternity. He loved God just as much before His crucifixion than during it, so it makes no sense to say that seeing Christ's love for Him made the Father decide to ignore men's sins. That is sentimental and irrational. The reason that Christ satisfied for our sins is that He bore the punishment due to them. I can't see any other explanation.
    Christ is a substitute for us in the sense that He bears the punishment. There is no opposition between satisfaction and substitution, in fact, they depend on each other. Christ satisfied for sin by substituting Himself for us. This substitution theory only becomes problematic if you say that Christ bore not only the punishment, but even the guilt itself. That would turn Christ into an object of God's wrath and hatred, which is the Protestant error on this subject. But bearing the punishment for somebody else's sin does not make you an object of hatred; in fact, it makes you an object of love, because it shows how self-sacrificing and loving you are towards your friend. Like I said though, I don't think it's even possible to take on somebody else's guilt, even "mystically" as Ladislaus affirms, because guilt is something that binds to your soul. It's the same with merit/reward. I can't give my merit to somebody else, I can only give the reward due to the merit to somebody else - but the merit itself binds to my soul, and can never be anybody else's but mine. The same with guilt/punishment; the guilt is always mine, but the punishment can be loaded on to another. The only way my guilt can be taken away from my soul is if the person whom I have offended chooses to forgive me.

    Think of the distinction between guilt and punishment when it comes to confession / indulgences. Confession wipes away the guilt, indulgences take away the punishment. The souls in purgatory aren't guilty, they are just paying for the punishment due to their sins in order to satisfy justice. God doesn't hate these souls like He does those in hell; He doesn't will their suffering, but only their satisfaction for their sins.


    Offline St John Evangelist

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #17 on: July 28, 2016, 07:37:44 PM »
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  • The very words, "behold the Lamb of God, behold He who takes away the sins of the world", imply a substitution. The Lamb of God takes away the sins of the world, i.e. He substitutes Himself for the world, and suffers on the world's behalf.

    Offline St John Evangelist

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #18 on: July 28, 2016, 07:43:07 PM »
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  • Rather than penal substitution (Christ payed the penalty for our sins), I think the Protestant theory should be called culpable substitution (Christ became culpable, guilty, in our place).

    Offline Lighthouse

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #19 on: July 29, 2016, 03:00:46 PM »
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  • I'm sorry to backtrack here, but I didn't see this before:


    Lighthouse said,
    Quote
    Your statement that Jesus Christ did not save us, he only made it possible for us to save ourselves is plain and simple heresy.


    SV:
    Quote
    I never said Christ made it possible for us to save ourselves. I don't know how you got that from my post He opened the door to Heaven, making our a salvation possible. Even so, we still have Free Will to choose whether to follow Him or not. God doesn't walk down the line with a magic wand touching people on the head and saving them despite their own will. Whether we want to be saved or not is our choice, ...




    Quote
    I never said Christ made it possible for us to save ourselves. I don't know how you got that from my post.


    Apparently you read English differently than I do.


    (NON)Sedevacantist:
    Quote
    You see, strictly speaking, the sacrifice of Christ did not save us. It made our salvation possible. The ultimate decision is up to us. He has given us the prison’s key, but it is up to each individual to use it.


    (NON)Sedevacantist:

    Quote
    I never said Christ made it possible for us to save ourselves. I don't know how you got that from my post.


    Offline sedevacantist

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #20 on: July 29, 2016, 06:19:25 PM »
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  • St. John the Evangelist said
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    You're using Passion incorrectly here. "Passion", when referring to Our Lord's Passion, does not mean passion in the modern sense: a passionate love, a passionate kiss. Passion comes from passive, to receive; passion as opposed to action, patient as opposed to agent. Our passions are the things that move us "passively", without an act of our will; which is why they can often contradict our will. Basically, Passion means to be moved or acted upon, and in this case it refers to all the suffering Our Lord suffered - that's His Passion.


    Whereas I would agree that the word "Passion" here refers to the sufferings of Christ - I would argue that even this definition has a direct relation to His affectionate desire for martyrdom (that is, the chance to prove his love for us). In fact, if we dig deep enough, we might even discover that the Bible translators' decision to substitute the original word "Sufferings" with "Passion" stems from Christ's desire to suffer for us. In other words, His martyrdom came to be known as "His Passion" because it was the object of His greatest desire. At the very least, there can be no doubt that when Christ referred to His martyrdom as "My Hour", it was done in an affectionate sense. This was the single most anticipated, and longed-for event of his earthly life. He clearly had a passion for it. This is beyond question.

    On the same note, we must admit that this peculiar definition of the word "Passion", never existed prior to Christ's earthly sojourn. The original Greek doesn't even use the word "Passion" - but "Suffering". So why the translator's substitution? Why was the word "Passion" eventually chosen by the translators in place of the original Greek word for "suffering"? Was it intended as a euphemism, similar to the Church's decision to refer to the day of Christ's agonizing torture and death as "Good Friday"? Perhaps. But I believe it goes deeper than that. I believe the Holy Ghost is behind the substitution. I believe the reason is because God wants us to remember that Christ desired to die for us. His martyrdom was not something He dreaded, or would have preferred not to undergo for us. No. He called it "My Hour" because it was the moment He longed for. Ultimately, He lived out this great passion of His through suffering. This, I believe, is why His martyrdom is referred to as "His Passion".


    St. John the Evangelist said
    Quote
    Furthermore, God did not desire to die on a cross. He desired to redeem mankind, and death on a cross was his chosen means to that end. Christ did ask the Father not to have to die in this way, but only according to the Father's will; well, it was the Father's will that Christ should die on the cross, so Christ obeyed.


    I would have to take issue with your opinion here. First of all, whereas Christ had two wills, they never conflicted with each other, but were always in perfect union. His human will never conflicted with His Divine will. This would prove an impossibility. What you are implying here, if I understand your statement correctly, is that Christ's Will conflicted with that of the Father's. In other words, God's will conflicted with God's will. This is theologically impossible, whether you are referring to Christ's human, or Divine will. God cannot contradict Himself.

    Secondly (following the same train of thought as above), God most certainly desired to die on the cross. In fact, one could argue that the method of torture and death we know as crucifixion was inspired by God Himself - through the agency of the devil, of course. If we look at the curious design of the human body, we must come to the inevitable conclusion that it was designed with the crucifixion in mind. The main nerves of the wrist, for example, are in the perfect location for crucifixion. The same is true of the main nerves through the feet. Furthermore, the position of the body during crucifixion is perfectly conducive to horrible suffering because of the specific design of the body. Breathing becomes difficult, the lack of oxygen eventually resulting in muscle cramps so sever that (according to one doctor) rigor mortise actually sets in while the victim is still alive. And the list goes on. It is even curious to note that the victim's survival instinct - a consequence of our Fallen Nature - prevents him from dying of his own will. Crucifixion is also the only torture for which the otherwise barbaric Roman soldiers supplied an elixir to deaden the initial shock. In short, it is the most painful torture known to man. In fact, the very word "excruciating" comes from "crucifixion".

    The point being, this method of death was inspired by God because it was the most painful torture one could possibly suffer - and therefore the most perfect means of gaining the most souls. For this reason alone, Christ desired it. This is not to say that I believe the Father positively desired that His Son suffer pain in reparation for our sins. Again, Christ could have shed a single tear and this would have been more than sufficient to satisfy Divine justice. But again, this method of death was the most perfect way to gain the most souls. In the end, this was the whole reason for choosing this method of atonement. And yes, God most certainly desired it for that reason alone.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #21 on: July 30, 2016, 09:51:14 AM »
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  • In one of my daily prayers, there is a sentence I found very profound,
    "God the Father agreed to be appeased by the Suffering and Blood shed of His Son".

    Perhaps this was already mentioned on this thread to consider the sweating of His Blood during His prayers in the garden prior to His taking away. Which indicates in my mind, fear.   God does not deceive us nor can He be deceived.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

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    Offline sedevacantist

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #22 on: August 01, 2016, 01:51:14 PM »
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  • MyrnaM said
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    In one of my daily prayers, there is a sentence I found very profound,
    "God the Father agreed to be appeased by the Suffering and Blood shed of His Son".

     
    Again, God's Will cannot contradict God's Will. Granted, it's a nice prayer, but you must admit it necessarily implies that God the Father was discussing the means of atonement with God the Son; and at some point in the discussion, the Father agreed to the Son's request - as if prior to the Father's agreement, Their Wills were not in absolute conformity with one another. The prayer follows the same type of poetic speech as those which mention God "repenting" of His actions, as if He was surprised and saddened at what had happened and decided to try something else. It's poetic speech. I apologize for raining on your parade here, but Catholics must realize that God knew from all eternity what He was going to do, and desired it with His whole heart as the most perfect means of atonement. It is theologically impossible that the Wills of the Father and Son were not in absolute conformity from all eternity. Both desired the crucifixion from the very start. Again, it's a nice prayer. Unfortunately, it's theologically impossible.

    Quote
    Perhaps this was already mentioned on this thread to consider the sweating of His Blood during His prayers in the garden prior to His taking away. Which indicates in my mind, fear.  God does not deceive us nor can He be deceived.


    Once again, the question is not whether Christ "feared". Scripture says He did. No, the question is WHAT DID HE FEAR. Was it the pains of His martyrdom that He was afraid of? This is cowardice. It's the very definition of cowardice. You can try and make it sound manly (well, He bravely pushed on didn't He?), but aside from redefining the concept of cowardice, there is no possible way to acquit this version of what it is.

    There is not a culture on the face of this earth - not even here in soft, effeminate America - where one doesn't instinctively recognize what it means to be manly. A cowboy; a football player; muscles; hot rods; dirt and grease; bravery; fearlessness; the refusal to ask for help, especially directions. We all instinctively know what it means to be manly. Cowering in the face of pain is NOT MANLY. It's cowardice! Women and children have shown greater bravery in the face of pain than this wimpy "Christ". Are we not even willing to give Him the benefit of the doubt? Why so tenaciously cling to this sniveling pansy. Honestly, let it go.

    The sweating of blood was caused by stress, not fear. It's a medical fact.
    Christ was literally dying, and had He not asked for relief, He would have ultimately succuмbed.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #23 on: August 01, 2016, 03:36:47 PM »
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  • Quote
    sedevacantist said
    Catholics must realize that God knew from all eternity what He was going to do, and desired it with His whole heart as the most perfect means of atonement. It is theologically impossible that the Wills of the Father and Son were not in absolute conformity from all eternity. Both desired the crucifixion from the very start.



    I for one have no problem and agree that the Wills of Father, Son and Holy Ghost were in absolute conformity from all eternity. However, the sentence in the prayer is a comfort to me because as a mother I could not understand how or why a Father would desire such pain and suffering for His Son. Yet, when I prayed this particular prayer and thought about the words "was appeased" it put a meaning that was acceptable to me, it showed me a different sense to the mystery.

    I confess just this morning while praying my prayers I was thinking of the sweating of the Blood of Jesus and understood it to mean, not fear but ... (excuse my lack of a better words to explain ) Jesus saw all the human faces from the beginning of time until the end; was so hurt by the few who accepted His sacrifice, His seeing so many souls who chose Lucifer instead of His sacrifice broke His heart if that was possible and He sweat His own Blood.
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Lighthouse

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #24 on: August 01, 2016, 03:46:06 PM »
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  • Be gone, squirrel boy.

    You move gracefully from heresy to blasphemy.

    I know you will accuse me of ad hominem.

    You jump from one miserable confusion of your mind to another. Again the word
    "cower" is your way of claiming insight into a situation you are not intellectually, or by dint of discovery, qualified to examine and espouse.



    Offline sedevacantist

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #25 on: August 08, 2016, 03:40:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote
    sedevacantist said
    Catholics must realize that God knew from all eternity what He was going to do, and desired it with His whole heart as the most perfect means of atonement. It is theologically impossible that the Wills of the Father and Son were not in absolute conformity from all eternity. Both desired the crucifixion from the very start.



    I for one have no problem and agree that the Wills of Father, Son and Holy Ghost were in absolute conformity from all eternity. However, the sentence in the prayer is a comfort to me because as a mother I could not understand how or why a Father would desire such pain and suffering for His Son. Yet, when I prayed this particular prayer and thought about the words "was appeased" it put a meaning that was acceptable to me, it showed me a different sense to the mystery.

    I confess just this morning while praying my prayers I was thinking of the sweating of the Blood of Jesus and understood it to mean, not fear but ... (excuse my lack of a better words to explain ) Jesus saw all the human faces from the beginning of time until the end; was so hurt by the few who accepted His sacrifice, His seeing so many souls who chose Lucifer instead of His sacrifice broke His heart if that was possible and He sweat His own Blood.


    I'm genuinely happy to hear of your devotion. And I'm glad you're praying. And you may very well be right that this is what caused His sweating of blood.
    As long as you understand that to deny the fact of conformity of wills is heretical. That's all. Think of my response simply as a warning. Unfortunately, this is where the "cowering" explanation leads. Christ didn't want to suffer, and therefore, His will must not have been in conformity with the Father's. That's where it leads. No, they were in perfect conformity, and Christ could only have desired His martyrdom.


    Offline sedevacantist

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #26 on: August 08, 2016, 03:46:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lighthouse
    Be gone, squirrel boy.

    You move gracefully from heresy to blasphemy.

    I know you will accuse me of ad hominem.

    You jump from one miserable confusion of your mind to another. Again the word
    "cower" is your way of claiming insight into a situation you are not intellectually, or by dint of discovery, qualified to examine and espouse.




    Heresy? Blasphemy?
    Explain your accusation with examples.
    While you're at it, perhaps you could explain to everyone why the "Cowering" explanation is so dear to your heart...

    Offline sedevacantist

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #27 on: August 12, 2016, 12:50:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: sedevacantist
    Quote from: Lighthouse
    Be gone, squirrel boy.

    You move gracefully from heresy to blasphemy.

    I know you will accuse me of ad hominem.

    You jump from one miserable confusion of your mind to another. Again the word
    "cower" is your way of claiming insight into a situation you are not intellectually, or by dint of discovery, qualified to examine and espouse.




    Heresy? Blasphemy?
    Explain your accusation with examples.
    While you're at it, perhaps you could explain to everyone why the "Cowering" explanation is so dear to your heart...


    No answer yet? It's been almost a week now.
    You throw out some gravely serious accusations - without offering any explanation, quote, or evidence whatsoever, and then run away.
    I was perfectly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt as to the reason you prefer the "cowardly" image of Christ over the manly one, but it seems to me by your actions that I would have been mistaken.

    Offline Lighthouse

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #28 on: August 12, 2016, 10:25:00 PM »
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  • Non-Sede:
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    No answer yet? It's been almost a week now.



    Sorry.  I had no idea you were missing me so much, and were counting the days to my return.

    It must get very lonely  down in mom's basement.

    To tell you the truth, I'm at a loss as to where you have taken this.

    I thought I made it clear  that I was in the "non-coward" camp and you were hellbent on trying to convince us that He was a coward.

    At some point in your meanderings you appeared to be pleased with making the Lord look bad,  and what?  Convince us that we should stop worshiping Him?

    Then you seemed to go off a tangent about indifferentism and BOD.

    Maybe, if you could just state your thesis in a few sentences and be plain about it.

    Offline sedevacantist

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    Did Christ really fear His impending martyrdom?
    « Reply #29 on: August 15, 2016, 12:46:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lighthouse
    Non-Sede:
    Quote
    No answer yet? It's been almost a week now.



    Sorry.  I had no idea you were missing me so much, and were counting the days to my return.

    It must get very lonely  down in mom's basement.

    To tell you the truth, I'm at a loss as to where you have taken this.

    I thought I made it clear  that I was in the "non-coward" camp and you were hellbent on trying to convince us that He was a coward.

    At some point in your meanderings you appeared to be pleased with making the Lord look bad,  and what?  Convince us that we should stop worshiping Him?

    Then you seemed to go off a tangent about indifferentism and BOD.

    Maybe, if you could just state your thesis in a few sentences and be plain about it.


    My entire point was that Christ was NOT A COWARD. It's unbelievable. How on earth did you misunderstand this? Did you even read the OP?

    And no, I'm not counting the days. I simply noticed the dates of the last post.