Author Topic: Dialogue Mass -- any thoughts on this? (Read 2722 times)

Neil Obstat · « **on:** June 08, 2012, 05:48:56 PM »

Our priest recently made an announcement from the pulpit admonishing those who habitually speak out loud the responses that belong to the altar servers at Mass, in the fashion of the dialogue Mass practice that developed in the 20th century, some time before Vatican II. He said it is improper for anyone who is not an altar server to be making those vocalizations at Low Mass.

But he did not go into any history and/or detail on the topic. Since there are a lot of members with experience in liturgical reform issues here, I would like to know what everyone thinks of the practice of the dialogue Mass.

Personally, it tends to interrupt my own thoughts and prayers at Mass, to hear people near me to suddenly join in with the servers on the altar. I don't suppose this is the case for others, necessarily, but I have no doubt that it is the case for me.

Has any member here heard their priest give instruction for everyone to follow on this question? If so, what did he have to say?

I would like to introduce this excerpt from an article I recently read that applies to this subject most tellingly:

Quote

The Dialogue Mass, being less than 90 years old in comparison with the 2000 year old
history of Church’s worship, must be seen in the context of the unprecedented and
constant changes in the liturgy which took place in the 20th century. Most of these were
of very short duration. A striking case is that of the Breviary. Even before the Council,
the Roman Breviary — the most important book after the Mass — suffered very important
and short-lived changes. In 1911 Pius X drastically altered the immemorial breviary
codified by Pius V in 1567. Only 34 years later Pius XII introduced a completely new
Latin psalter to replace the one which had been in constant use since the earliest days of
the Church. Although in theory optional, breviaries were no longer printed with the old
Psalter. This was reversed by John XXIII who made further alterations in 1960 and
restored the old Psalter. Almost everyone then abandoned that of Pius XII. This is only
one example of the numerous liturgical changes which took place without ceasing
throughout the period from the reign of Pius X to that of John XXIII before the traditional
liturgy was finally abandoned. Nothing like it had ever been known in the entire history of
the Church. It is therefore obvious that Liturgical directives do not remain binding for all
time!

Tomas de Torquemada · « **Reply #1 on:** June 08, 2012, 07:59:46 PM »

Personally I find it to be exceedingly annoying. If done within the context of the Low Mass it is maddening. If done at the HIgh Mass it is excrutiating and virtually eliminates the possibility of well chanted or polyphonic Mass.

Hobbledehoy · « **Reply #2 on:** June 09, 2012, 12:13:35 AM »

The Instruction of the Congregation of Sacred Rites De musica sacra et sacra liturgia ad mentem litterarum encyclicarum Pii Papae XII «Musicae sacrae disciplina» et «Mediator Dei» (3 September 1958) lays down the principles of what is commonly known as the "dialogue" Mass, and its use (according to the strict norms as set forth in the Instruction) no longer requires the permission of the local Ordinary, though it leaves it completely ad libitum.

From the tome Sacred Music and Liturgy: The Instruction of the Sacred Congregation of Rites Concerning Sacred Music and Sacred Liturgy in Accordance with the Encyclical Letters of Pope Pius XII "Musicae Sacrae Disciplina" and "Mediator Dei", with translation and commentary by Rev. Fr. J. B. O'Connell (Westminster, MD: The Newman Press, 1959), here is the part of this Instruction that is pertinent to this discussion and accompanying commentary:

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #3 on:** June 09, 2012, 12:32:07 AM »

Quote from: Tomas de Torquemada

Personally I find it to be exceedingly annoying. If done within the context of the Low Mass it is maddening. If done at the High Mass it is excruciating, and virtually eliminates the possibility of well-chanted or polyphonic Mass.

Well, your reply is certainly reassuring. For me, anything that introduces a distraction for me is a negative. I face near occasions of SIN everywhere outside the walls of the Church on a daily basis. Why would I want to face more near occasions of SIN inside the Church?

Perhaps the choir isn't sounding its best that day, well, sometimes I chime in if it isn't distracting for others around me, or certainly for the closing or recessional, the congregation is welcome to join in. I can deal with the choir okay. But when it comes to the responses, having isolated voices chirp in, often at the wrong time, or saying the wrong words, it takes my mind off of the Mass, and I want to leave. That's not a good thing.

As for Pope Pius XII allowing dialogue Mass, it seems to me that adds to the list of things he did that were NOT okay. Probably the worst thing was putting Anibale Bugnini into a position of authority to change the liturgy. Another was the revision of the Psalter -- unnecessary! And, by the way, that was UNDONE later by John XXIII.

There were several things Pius XII did that were BAD and several things John XXIII did that were GOOD. Too bad they don't all come out for the overall betterment of the Church!

Francisco · « **Reply #4 on:** June 09, 2012, 11:31:33 AM »

TRADITIO has an article by Fr Edward Black, Superior of SSPX Australia, on the Dialogue Mass.

www.traditio.com/tradlib/dialogue.pdf

Sigismund · « **Reply #5 on:** June 09, 2012, 10:31:29 PM »

As always, a really informative post from Hobble.