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Author Topic: Conditional Confirmation  (Read 2065 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Conditional Confirmation
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2019, 08:24:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Chronologic4 on May 03, 2019, 08:23:22 AM
    No, you should not.  Ask your Bishop.

    Get lost.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #16 on: May 03, 2019, 08:24:50 AM »
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    • Chronologic4....are you another novus ordo apologist who has snuck on this site?  

    I mean, Fr Collins just died and we all need to do penances for him, but suffering with novus ordo-ites is the worst.  O Lord, deliver me from my impatience!
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    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #17 on: May 03, 2019, 08:34:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 03, 2019, 08:24:50 AM
    Chronologic4....are you another novus ordo apologist who has snuck on this site?  

    I mean, Fr Collins just died and we all need to do penances for him, but suffering with novus ordo-ites is the worst.  O Lord, deliver me from my impatience!
    I was just about to say that. He/she was also seemingly defending the Othodox.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #18 on: May 03, 2019, 02:13:18 PM »
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    • I am torn between three different reactions here.

    Amusement at the fact that NO trolls (who I believe are technically operating within group rules) are exploiting a technicality and trolling amusingly.

    Wondering why the heck a strident NO type would join an SSPX Resistance leaning board.

    Wondering how I haven't been accused of being an NO apologist yet.  
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    Offline X

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #19 on: May 03, 2019, 02:23:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on May 03, 2019, 02:13:18 PM
    I am torn between three different reactions here.

    Amusement at the fact that NO trolls (who I believe are technically operating within group rules) are exploiting a technicality and trolling amusingly.

    Wondering why the heck a strident NO type would join an SSPX Resistance leaning board.

    Wondering how I haven't been accused of being an NO apologist yet.  

    Because despite certain of your opinions, your sincerity is evident and without agenda.
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    Offline Maillot Jaune

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #20 on: May 04, 2019, 12:44:49 PM »
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    • I was confirmed in 1986. The bishop was Novus Ordo, but he was ordained a priest and conferred the episcopacy in the Old Rite before 1969. Is my confirmation doubtful?
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    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #21 on: May 04, 2019, 03:36:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Maillot Jaune on May 04, 2019, 12:44:49 PM
    I was confirmed in 1986. The bishop was Novus Ordo, but he was ordained a priest and conferred the episcopacy in the Old Rite before 1969. Is my confirmation doubtful?
    Yes because the matter, form and intention were all performed in the New Rites. Any old oil could have been used with words the bishop could’ve made up on the spot. Which means doubt. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #22 on: May 04, 2019, 05:14:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mega-fin on May 04, 2019, 03:36:07 PM
    Yes because the matter, form and intention were all performed in the New Rites. Any old oil could have been used with words the bishop could’ve made up on the spot. Which means doubt.

    Agreed ... the validity concern isn't just a question regarding the validity of the minister.  It's about the matter and form.  With appropriate jurisdiction, even a priest can confer the Sacrament of Confirmation (they do so regularly in the Eastern Rites).

    I know of one bishop who regularly just said "become a soldier of Christ" while anointing the oil.
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    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #23 on: May 04, 2019, 06:03:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 04, 2019, 05:14:39 PM
    I know of one bishop who regularly just said "become a soldier of Christ" while anointing the oil.
    I thought they wouldn’t like the whole “soldier” language ... I figured that would have been thrown out with the rest of it!
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    Offline Maillot Jaune

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #24 on: May 04, 2019, 07:08:19 PM »
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    Yes because the matter, form and intention were all performed in the New Rites. Any old oil could have been used with words the bishop could’ve made up on the spot. Which means doubt.

    But not positive doubt. Only a speculative "what if" doubt.
    To worry about it is along the lines of being scrupulous. I'm not worried about it. I did my part in getting confirmed. I put my heart into it as a kid. I studied the saints' lives and I carefully chose my patron saint. I knew confirmation was a special day for me, even while preparing and studying for it. I didn't merely go through the motions like most teenagers do when getting confirmed. I knew the significance of it. I also remember Blessed Virgin Mary being very important to me that day and my knowledge of her significance grew from that point.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #25 on: May 04, 2019, 07:29:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Maillot Jaune on May 04, 2019, 07:08:19 PM
    But not positive doubt. Only a speculative "what if" doubt.

    Not true.  If you had been confirmed before Vatican II and thought, "what if the bishop botched the words of the form and I'm not validly confirmed?" ... THAT is negative doubt.

    But the practice of using doubtful oils and tampering with the form became widespread in the Novus Ordo.  So that then rises to the level of positive doubt.  That suddenly gives you a positive specific reason for doubt vs. a completely unfounded "what if?"
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #26 on: May 04, 2019, 07:32:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Maillot Jaune on May 04, 2019, 07:08:19 PM
    I did my part in getting confirmed. I put my heart into it as a kid. I studied the saints' lives and I carefully chose my patron saint. I knew confirmation was a special day for me, even while preparing and studying for it. I didn't merely go through the motions like most teenagers do when getting confirmed. I knew the significance of it. I also remember Blessed Virgin Mary being very important to me that day and my knowledge of her significance grew from that point.

    While that's great, your personal dispositions have nothing to do with receiving the effects of the Sacrament, which are confirmed ex opere operato.  There's no such thing as "Confirmation of Desire".
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    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #27 on: May 04, 2019, 07:34:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Maillot Jaune on May 04, 2019, 07:08:19 PM
    But not positive doubt. Only a speculative "what if" doubt.
    To worry about it is along the lines of being scrupulous. I'm not worried about it. I did my part in getting confirmed. I put my heart into it as a kid. I studied the saints' lives and I carefully chose my patron saint. I knew confirmation was a special day for me, even while preparing and studying for it. I didn't merely go through the motions like most teenagers do when getting confirmed. I knew the significance of it. I also remember Blessed Virgin Mary being very important to me that day and my knowledge of her significance grew from that point.
    Ok, but olive oil is necessary for validity, ask St Thomas Aquinas. So is the correct form. So if the bishop used canola oil, positive doubt. Seeing as how important the sacraments are and the fact that you really cant go back and check, I would go and get it done regardless. You have nothing to loose by getting it done. Whether or not your devotion grew to Our Lady doesn’t prove the validity of the sacrament.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #28 on: May 04, 2019, 07:40:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mega-fin on May 04, 2019, 07:34:03 PM
    So if the bishop used canola oil, positive doubt.

    I believe that it was palm oil that became widely used.
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    Offline Maillot Jaune

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    Re: Conditional Confirmation
    « Reply #29 on: May 04, 2019, 07:56:20 PM »
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    •  
    Quote
    Ok, but olive oil is necessary for validity, ask St Thomas Aquinas. So is the correct form. So if the bishop used canola oil, positive doubt. Seeing as how important the sacraments are and the fact that you really cant go back and check, I would go and get it done regardless. You have nothing to loose by getting it done. Whether or not your devotion grew to Our Lady doesn’t prove the validity of the sacrament.

    It's only speculative what oil was used by the bishop. Again, there is no positive doubt.
    I already did my part. I trust in God to have effected it. If God isn't going to recognize my confirmation as valid because of an impediment that is no fault of my own, and because of something I had no control over, then there's nothing I can do about it. Getting conditionally confirmed isn't a practical reality for me. If God sends a trad bishop within the proximty of my living area, and I happen to run into him by Providence, then I'll ask him to conditionally confirm me. Otherwise, I'm not worring about it.
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