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Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: Your Friend Colin on May 02, 2019, 11:37:51 AM

Title: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Your Friend Colin on May 02, 2019, 11:37:51 AM
I spoke with a Society priest and he said it would be a good idea to investigate my Novus Ordo Confirmation. Bishop Fellay is going to be here in August to do Confirmations. Should I pursue a conditional Confirmation with Bishop Fellay?
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Stubborn on May 02, 2019, 12:08:49 PM
I spoke with a Society priest and he said it would be a good idea to investigate my Novus Ordo Confirmation. Bishop Fellay is going to be here in August to do Confirmations. Should I pursue a conditional Confirmation with Bishop Fellay?
Sounds like a heaven sent opportunity. By all means, investigate and if after investigating there is doubt, ask if you can be conditionally confirmed by +Fellay.

Just be sure SSPX / +Fellay knows it's a conditional confirmation as that is something you need to be sure that the bishop knows before hand.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Ladislaus on May 02, 2019, 12:12:01 PM
I would ask to have it done regardless.  You may never get to the truth of it.  Who can remember what form the bishop used (they like to play with this one)?, and for a while they were using doubtful substitute oils instead of olive oil.  Given that these are pervasive practices in the Novus Ordo, this rises to the level of positive doubt, and I would get it done regardless.  What are you going to do, interview witnesses who can testify to the exact form used by the Bishop ... and contact the diocese to make sure they were only using Olive Oil?
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Your Friend Colin on May 02, 2019, 12:17:06 PM
Sounds like a heaven sent opportunity. By all means, investigate and if after investigating there is doubt, ask if you can be conditionally confirmed by +Fellay.

Just be sure SSPX / +Fellay knows it's a conditional confirmation as that is something you need to be sure that the bishop knows before hand.
Thanks, Stubborn.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Your Friend Colin on May 02, 2019, 12:19:05 PM
I would ask to have it done regardless.  You may never get to the truth of it.  Who can remember what form the bishop used (they like to play with this one)?, and for a while they were using doubtful substitute oils instead of olive oil.  Given that these are pervasive practices in the Novus Ordo, this rises to the level of positive doubt, and I would get it done regardless.  What are you going to do, interview witnesses who can testify to the exact form used by the Bishop ... and contact the diocese to make sure they were only using Olive Oil?
Hah! I was thinking about contacting Archbishop Chaput about whether or not he used genuine olive oil. 1) He might not remember 2) I probably won't get a response. Regardless of whether he did use the proper matter, the form of the sacrament is still dubious.
Thanks, Lad.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Ladislaus on May 02, 2019, 01:22:13 PM
Hah! I was thinking about contacting Archbishop Chaput about whether or not he used genuine olive oil. 1) He might not remember 2) I probably won't get a response. Regardless of whether he did use the proper matter, the form of the sacrament is still dubious.
Thanks, Lad.

I asked Bishop Williamson to conditionally confirm me right before I entered the Seminary ... without having done ANY investigation whatsoever, and His Excellency was happy to oblige.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Mega-fin on May 02, 2019, 02:00:55 PM
Request it regardless, it’s too important to leave to chance. The sacrament of Confirmation is especially important in today’s apostasy
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Matthew on May 02, 2019, 05:00:44 PM
I asked Bishop Williamson to conditionally confirm me right before I entered the Seminary ... without having done ANY investigation whatsoever, and His Excellency was happy to oblige.
At the seminary, when the subject came up, I left it completely to their discretion. I stated simply and factually the circumstances of my Confirmation (the local Novus Ordo Bishop, using the old Rite in Latin, under auspices of Institute of Christ the King) and they decided to have me conditionally confirmed by +Williamson.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Ladislaus on May 02, 2019, 06:29:31 PM
At the seminary, when the subject came up, I left it completely to their discretion. I stated simply and factually the circumstances of my Confirmation (the local Novus Ordo Bishop, using the old Rite in Latin, under auspices of Institute of Christ the King) and they decided to have me conditionally confirmed by +Williamson.

I wasn't technically AT the seminary YET (so I compressed and simplified what I wrote) ... it was in the month of May BEFORE I entered.  I had already communicated my intention to enter in the Fall.  +Williamson was doing confirmations at the SSPX chapel I was attending (at college in Chicago), and I asked him, and he did it without questions.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: X on May 02, 2019, 06:39:21 PM
Surprised the SSPX is still doing conditional confirmations these days.

I would agree with Ladislaus: Better to get it done while you have the chance.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: josefamenendez on May 02, 2019, 06:48:25 PM
I can't say this as an absolute, but around the time of leaving the FSSP, I was looking to be conditionally Confirmed and had contacted the SSPX- they were not addressing conditional Confirmations any longer ( or at least not at that time) I was unable to get further information. I was getting Bishop Williamson's newsletter and  read that he would be in the States shortly for Confirmations. I made arrangements to be there and from then on have been aligned with the "Resistance". I was conditionally Confirmed 45 years after my Novus Ordo Confirmation.
Might it be that the SSPX does not want to intimate that there might be anything wrong or lacking with the Novus Ordo Sacrament(s)?
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Laud A Haug on May 02, 2019, 08:59:51 PM
Even if your Novus Ordo confirmation was done within the last 10 years, +Fellay will probably be fine it.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Ladislaus on May 03, 2019, 08:15:46 AM
Might it be that the SSPX does not want to intimate that there might be anything wrong or lacking with the Novus Ordo Sacrament(s)?

Exactly right.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Chronologic4 on May 03, 2019, 08:22:40 AM
No.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Chronologic4 on May 03, 2019, 08:23:22 AM
I spoke with a Society priest and he said it would be a good idea to investigate my Novus Ordo Confirmation. Bishop Fellay is going to be here in August to do Confirmations. Should I pursue a conditional Confirmation with Bishop Fellay?
No, you should not.  Ask your Bishop.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Ladislaus on May 03, 2019, 08:24:30 AM
No, you should not.  Ask your Bishop.

Get lost.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 03, 2019, 08:24:50 AM
Chronologic4....are you another novus ordo apologist who has snuck on this site?  

I mean, Fr Collins just died and we all need to do penances for him, but suffering with novus ordo-ites is the worst.  O Lord, deliver me from my impatience!
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Your Friend Colin on May 03, 2019, 08:34:17 AM
Chronologic4....are you another novus ordo apologist who has snuck on this site?  

I mean, Fr Collins just died and we all need to do penances for him, but suffering with novus ordo-ites is the worst.  O Lord, deliver me from my impatience!
I was just about to say that. He/she was also seemingly defending the Othodox.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: ByzCat3000 on May 03, 2019, 02:13:18 PM
I am torn between three different reactions here.

Amusement at the fact that NO trolls (who I believe are technically operating within group rules) are exploiting a technicality and trolling amusingly.

Wondering why the heck a strident NO type would join an SSPX Resistance leaning board.

Wondering how I haven't been accused of being an NO apologist yet.  
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: X on May 03, 2019, 02:23:00 PM
I am torn between three different reactions here.

Amusement at the fact that NO trolls (who I believe are technically operating within group rules) are exploiting a technicality and trolling amusingly.

Wondering why the heck a strident NO type would join an SSPX Resistance leaning board.

Wondering how I haven't been accused of being an NO apologist yet.  

Because despite certain of your opinions, your sincerity is evident and without agenda.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Maillot Jaune on May 04, 2019, 12:44:49 PM
I was confirmed in 1986. The bishop was Novus Ordo, but he was ordained a priest and conferred the episcopacy in the Old Rite before 1969. Is my confirmation doubtful?
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Mega-fin on May 04, 2019, 03:36:07 PM
I was confirmed in 1986. The bishop was Novus Ordo, but he was ordained a priest and conferred the episcopacy in the Old Rite before 1969. Is my confirmation doubtful?
Yes because the matter, form and intention were all performed in the New Rites. Any old oil could have been used with words the bishop could’ve made up on the spot. Which means doubt. 
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Ladislaus on May 04, 2019, 05:14:39 PM
Yes because the matter, form and intention were all performed in the New Rites. Any old oil could have been used with words the bishop could’ve made up on the spot. Which means doubt.

Agreed ... the validity concern isn't just a question regarding the validity of the minister.  It's about the matter and form.  With appropriate jurisdiction, even a priest can confer the Sacrament of Confirmation (they do so regularly in the Eastern Rites).

I know of one bishop who regularly just said "become a soldier of Christ" while anointing the oil.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Mega-fin on May 04, 2019, 06:03:44 PM
I know of one bishop who regularly just said "become a soldier of Christ" while anointing the oil.
I thought they wouldn’t like the whole “soldier” language ... I figured that would have been thrown out with the rest of it!
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Maillot Jaune on May 04, 2019, 07:08:19 PM
Quote
Yes because the matter, form and intention were all performed in the New Rites. Any old oil could have been used with words the bishop could’ve made up on the spot. Which means doubt.

But not positive doubt. Only a speculative "what if" doubt.
To worry about it is along the lines of being scrupulous. I'm not worried about it. I did my part in getting confirmed. I put my heart into it as a kid. I studied the saints' lives and I carefully chose my patron saint. I knew confirmation was a special day for me, even while preparing and studying for it. I didn't merely go through the motions like most teenagers do when getting confirmed. I knew the significance of it. I also remember Blessed Virgin Mary being very important to me that day and my knowledge of her significance grew from that point.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Ladislaus on May 04, 2019, 07:29:28 PM
But not positive doubt. Only a speculative "what if" doubt.

Not true.  If you had been confirmed before Vatican II and thought, "what if the bishop botched the words of the form and I'm not validly confirmed?" ... THAT is negative doubt.

But the practice of using doubtful oils and tampering with the form became widespread in the Novus Ordo.  So that then rises to the level of positive doubt.  That suddenly gives you a positive specific reason for doubt vs. a completely unfounded "what if?"
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Ladislaus on May 04, 2019, 07:32:40 PM
I did my part in getting confirmed. I put my heart into it as a kid. I studied the saints' lives and I carefully chose my patron saint. I knew confirmation was a special day for me, even while preparing and studying for it. I didn't merely go through the motions like most teenagers do when getting confirmed. I knew the significance of it. I also remember Blessed Virgin Mary being very important to me that day and my knowledge of her significance grew from that point.

While that's great, your personal dispositions have nothing to do with receiving the effects of the Sacrament, which are confirmed ex opere operato.  There's no such thing as "Confirmation of Desire".
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Mega-fin on May 04, 2019, 07:34:03 PM
But not positive doubt. Only a speculative "what if" doubt.
To worry about it is along the lines of being scrupulous. I'm not worried about it. I did my part in getting confirmed. I put my heart into it as a kid. I studied the saints' lives and I carefully chose my patron saint. I knew confirmation was a special day for me, even while preparing and studying for it. I didn't merely go through the motions like most teenagers do when getting confirmed. I knew the significance of it. I also remember Blessed Virgin Mary being very important to me that day and my knowledge of her significance grew from that point.
Ok, but olive oil is necessary for validity, ask St Thomas Aquinas. So is the correct form. So if the bishop used canola oil, positive doubt. Seeing as how important the sacraments are and the fact that you really cant go back and check, I would go and get it done regardless. You have nothing to loose by getting it done. Whether or not your devotion grew to Our Lady doesn’t prove the validity of the sacrament.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Ladislaus on May 04, 2019, 07:40:47 PM
So if the bishop used canola oil, positive doubt.

I believe that it was palm oil that became widely used.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Maillot Jaune on May 04, 2019, 07:56:20 PM
 
Quote
Ok, but olive oil is necessary for validity, ask St Thomas Aquinas. So is the correct form. So if the bishop used canola oil, positive doubt. Seeing as how important the sacraments are and the fact that you really cant go back and check, I would go and get it done regardless. You have nothing to loose by getting it done. Whether or not your devotion grew to Our Lady doesn’t prove the validity of the sacrament.

It's only speculative what oil was used by the bishop. Again, there is no positive doubt.
I already did my part. I trust in God to have effected it. If God isn't going to recognize my confirmation as valid because of an impediment that is no fault of my own, and because of something I had no control over, then there's nothing I can do about it. Getting conditionally confirmed isn't a practical reality for me. If God sends a trad bishop within the proximty of my living area, and I happen to run into him by Providence, then I'll ask him to conditionally confirm me. Otherwise, I'm not worring about it.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: Maillot Jaune on May 04, 2019, 08:01:07 PM
Quote
While that's great, your personal dispositions have nothing to do with receiving the effects of the Sacrament, which are confirmed ex opere operato. There's no such thing as "Confirmation of Desire".
Yes, I know. All that matters for salvation is water baptism living the teachings of Jesus Christ (including faith in Him and being free from mortal sin upon death).
Even if my confirmation wasn't valid due to corruption of matter or form by the conferring Bishop, it's not an impediment to my soul reaching Heaven. So many people who have recieved the sacrament of confirmation are still hellbound. A person who only recieves water baptism can make it to Heaven before any person receiving confirmation, if the former dies in the state of grace while the latter dies in mortal sin.
Title: Re: Conditional Confirmation
Post by: X on May 04, 2019, 11:30:39 PM
While that's great, your personal dispositions have nothing to do with receiving the effects of the Sacrament, which are confirmed ex opere operato.

Actually, this is completely false:

While the sacrament is produced ex opere operato, it's effect is received ex opere operantis, according to the disposition of the subject.

So, for example, if a soul is in mortal sin, the grace of the sacrament is not efficacious in that soul (not because the grace was not produced and transmitted by the confection and reception of the sacrament, but because the ill disposition of the subject did not permit that grace to become efficacious).

Like pouring water into an open, or covered, vessel:

The good disposition will efficaciously receive the grace (open vessel), while the ill-disposed soul will have erected an obex gratiae over his soul (covered vessel), such that the grace cannot penetrate it.