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Offline Alex117

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Civil Allegiance
« on: October 18, 2012, 06:39:16 PM »
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  • I was curious as to how much obedience (if any at all) a Catholic was to give to the State, but I could never find any information pertaining to this on traditional Catholic websites. While perusing the Catholic Encyclopedia (hosted by the New Advent website), I finally came upon the article I was looking for: Civil Allegiance. What I read in that article was quite frankly shocking to me. Here are a few snippets from the article:

    "By civil allegiance is meant the duty of loyalty and obedience which a person owes to the State of which he is a citizen."

    "As nature and religion prescribe to children dutiful conduct towards the parents who brought them into the world, so nature and religion impose on citizens certain obligations towards their country and its rulers."

    "These obligations may be reduced to those of patriotism and obedience."

    "Patriotism requires that the citizen should have a reasonable esteem and love for his country."

    "He should take an interest in his country's history, he should know how to value her institutions, and he should be prepared to sacrifice himself for her welfare."

    "In his country's need it is not only a noble thing, but it is a sacred duty to lay down one's life for the safety of the commonwealth."

    "Love for his country will lead the citizen to show honour and respect to its rulers. They represent the State, and are entrusted by God with power to rule it for the common good."

    Perhaps it was the few months I spent with "Catholics" at a Newman Center a long time ago, and that I had absorbed some of their anti-State and pro-anarchy inclinations, or perhaps I never had much of an affection for America in the first place, but I would have never thought that the Church's view on the state was so...favorable.

    However, my question to you all is, do these statements from the article still hold water today? I want to be patriotic, to love my country, and to uphold my sacred duty by dying for the safety of the commonwealth, but America is so deeply stained with error. I think the argument against this would be, "Don't love America for what she represents today, but love America for what she is supposed to be in principle," but I truly don't even love what America stands for in principle. I don't even like the Constitution, as it says right there in Amendment 1:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

    That's ridiculous.

    Perhaps the article's statements on civil allegiance only stand if one lives in a Catholic country? I don't know. I would like all of your input on this because on one hand, I want to love my country and be prepared to die for her, while on the other hand, I want to get the hell out of here as fast as possible.

    Thank you for reading my thoughts.

    Online Nadir

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    « Reply #1 on: October 18, 2012, 08:55:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alex117
    I However, my question to you all is, do these statements from the article still hold water today? I want to be patriotic, to love my country, and to uphold my sacred duty by dying for the safety of the commonwealth, but America is so deeply stained with error. I think the argument against this would be, "Don't love America for what she represents today, but love America for what she is supposed to be in principle," but I truly don't even love what America stands for in principle. I don't even like the Constitution, as it says right there in Amendment 1:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

    That's ridiculous.

    Perhaps the article's statements on civil allegiance only stand if one lives in a Catholic country? I don't know. I would like all of your input on this because on one hand, I want to love my country and be prepared to die for her, while on the other hand, I want to get the hell out of here as fast as possible.

    Thank you for reading my thoughts.


    The principles stated are general and not specifically related to the U.S. of which you are a citizen. The principles are good, but the (U.S.) state does not live by God's principles, and that is the dilemma.

    It is natural for a person to love their country of birth. If I, as an Australian and Italian citizen, were to start criticising your nation, half the members here would be down on me like a ton of hot bricks, even if they reserve to themselves the right to criticise their native land. It would be the same if the boot were on the other foot.

    There are papal encyclicals and good books on exactly this topic and I sure they will be named here soon.

    Regarding your getting the hell out of here as fast as possible learn another language (if you haven't already) and if it is Italian, consider St Peter Martyr Seminary here: http://www.sodalitiumpianum.com/index.php?pid=2.

    Your thoughts are a pleasure to read.


    Offline Alex117

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    « Reply #2 on: October 18, 2012, 09:27:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    Regarding your getting the hell out of here as fast as possible learn another language (if you haven't already) and if it is Italian, consider St Peter Martyr Seminary here: http://www.sodalitiumpianum.com/index.php?pid=2.

    Oh, how I would love to move to Italy, my great-grandfather's homeland. Ethnically, I'm still a good deal Italian and I have an Italian last name. Additionally, if I were to ever marry, I'd specifically look for an Italian girl, so that I could "repair the bloodline", so to speak.

    I've looked into moving to Italy before, but it seems impossible for somebody like me. I would either need to be a "citizen by blood" (which I'm not sure I qualify for), or I would need to be a specialized worker.

    Can you tell me more about the seminary you recommended? Have you attended there before, or are you currently attending?

    Online Nadir

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    « Reply #3 on: October 19, 2012, 04:59:47 AM »
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  • Dear Alessandro,

    The seminary I mentioned belongs to the Mater Boni Consilii (Mother of Good Council) Institute. I don’t know much about the seminary itself, (did you check out the link?), but while in Italy last year, my husband and I attended, once a month, the latin Mass, always offered by the superior of  Mater Boni Consilii Institute.

    Also to the end of our year there we attended a wonderful conference, given by the same superior, don (Fr) Francesco Ricossa, speaking on this same topic, the role of the Church and the state, and the proper, correctly ordered relationship between them. Many of the seminarians were present for the conference which was held to mark the 150th anniversary of the Italian republic, the main aim being to debunk the Masonic hype which raged in Italy in that year.

    This group, said to resemble the American-based Society of St. Pius V (which I am not familiar with), began as a breakaway from SSPX. They are very politically informed.

    BTW, be careful not to romanticize Italy, as most of us new-worlders do. Italy is not what most people imagine. It is far from Catholic and as for finding a nice Italian girl, they are few and fair between, as are nice Italian boys, because Italians generally don't have more than one child. A lot of unemployed teachers there.

    As for all those churches which give the impression of Catholicity, most are in the hands of the Novus ordites or UNESCO.

    But I do encourage you to learn the language!

    Offline Alex117

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    « Reply #4 on: October 19, 2012, 10:56:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    I don’t know much about the seminary itself, (did you check out the link?)

    Yes, I checked out the link, but I think human input is better, especially if you had some experience with the seminary/organization, which you do. I read that the MGC are Sedeprivationists, which is a school of thought that I didn't even know existed until just now. I'll have to read more about it. In the mean time, I'll keep the seminary on my radar, since training to be a traditional priest in Italy in the Italian language sounds too good to be true. I wonder if they would take an American like me if I learned Italian...

    Quote from: Nadir
    BTW, be careful not to romanticize Italy, as most of us new-worlders do. Italy is not what most people imagine. It is far from Catholic and as for finding a nice Italian girl, they are few and fair between, as are nice Italian boys, because Italians generally don't have more than one child. A lot of unemployed teachers there.

    As for all those churches which give the impression of Catholicity, most are in the hands of the Novus ordites or UNESCO.

    But I do encourage you to learn the language!

    My hopes, my dreams! Shattered! :sad:

    Ah well, I'll learn the language anyway. What I know of it already is rather pretty, and I would like to learn it for heritage's sake and to be a better priest, if that is what I am to become.


    Online Nadir

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    « Reply #5 on: October 19, 2012, 03:31:32 PM »
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  • Quote
    I'll keep the seminary on my radar, since training to be a traditional priest in Italy in the Italian language sounds too good to be true. I wonder if they would take an American like me if I learned Italian...


    I imagine they'd take anyone whom they believe is genuine and has a vocation. In any case, a second (third, fourth?) language never did anyone any harm! We have some great examples here with us on cathinfo who do wonderful work with translation.

    Online Nadir

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    « Reply #6 on: October 19, 2012, 03:45:26 PM »
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  • Back to your first post, seeing nodody else has yet come up with any suggestions, I think it would be good for you to familiarise yourself with the thoughts of Fr Denis Fahey, his " The Mystical Body of Christ  in the Modern World" is free online  here http://www.liberius.net/livres/The_Mystical_Body_of_Christ_and_the_reorganization_of_society_000000310.pdf

    Offline Alex117

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    « Reply #7 on: October 19, 2012, 05:14:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    Back to your first post, seeing nodody else has yet come up with any suggestions, I think it would be good for you to familiarise yourself with the thoughts of Fr Denis Fahey, his " The Mystical Body of Christ  in the Modern World" is free online  here http://www.liberius.net/livres/The_Mystical_Body_of_Christ_and_the_reorganization_of_society_000000310.pdf

    Thank you, I'll take a look at it for sure.

    I'm quite surprised nobody else has voiced their opinion here. I would have thought that this would be a hot topic among many of the forum goers!


    Online Nadir

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    « Reply #8 on: October 19, 2012, 07:37:16 PM »
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  • Me too! Could be the topic title, doesn't catch the attention. If we keep bumping it someone might wake up. Meanwhile, Separation of Church and State - Manifest Destiny or Manifest Heresy? by David Palm http://www.seattlecatholic.com/a050615.html

    I haven’t read this article but at least it will give you some leads to Church docs which you can find on line at http://www.papalencyclicals.net/

    Offline Alex117

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    « Reply #9 on: October 19, 2012, 08:21:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    I haven’t read this article but at least it will give you some leads to Church docs which you can find on line at http://www.papalencyclicals.net/

    Can PapalEncyclicals.net be trusted as a resource? I just tried reading about the First Council of Nicaea and it seems like it was slightly re-written in post-Vatican II dumbed down English. For example:

    From PapalEncyclicals.net:
    We believe in one God the Father all powerful, maker of all things both seen and unseen. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten begotten from the Father, that is from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, CONSUBSTANTIAL with the Father, through whom all things came to be, both those in heaven and those in earth; for us humans and for our salvation he came down and became incarnate, became human, suffered and rose up on the third day, went up into the heavens, is coming to judge the living and the dead. And in the holy Spirit. And those who say "there once was when he was not", and "before he was begotten he was not", and that he came to be from things that were not, or from another hypostasis or substance,  affirming that the Son of God is subject to change or alteration these the catholic and apostolic church anathematises.

    From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
    We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father. By whom all things were made, both which be in heaven and in earth. Who for us men and for our salvation came down [from heaven] and was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he rose again, and ascended into heaven. And he shall come again to judge both the quick and the dead. And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost. And whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not, or that before he was begotten he was not, or that he was made of things that were not, or that he is of a different substance or essence [from the Father] or that he is a creature, or subject to change or conversion — all that so say, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them.

    Online Nadir

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    « Reply #10 on: October 20, 2012, 12:04:13 AM »
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  • Good question! And sharp of you to see it. The website does give the warning that “This is not a Vatican site.”

    Looking at the two texts you sent:

    Catholic Encyclopedia: the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible;
    Cf. papalencyclicals:
    the Father all powerful, maker of all things both seen and unseen.

    Catholic Encyclopedia: of the substance of the Father, being of one substance with the Father.
    cf. papalencyclicals: that is from the substance of the Father, CONSUBSTANTIAL with the Father,

    Catholic Encyclopedia: Who for us men and for our salvation came down [from heaven] and was incarnate and was made man.
    cf. papalencyclicals: for us humans and for our salvation he came down and became incarnate, became human,

    Catholic Encyclopedia: And he shall come again to judge both the quick and the dead.
    cf. papalencyclicals: is coming to judge the living and the dead.

    Catholic Encyclopedia: or that he is a creature, (omitted in PE) or subject to change or conversion — all that so say, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them.  
    Cf. papalencyclicals: affirming that the Son of God is subject to change or alteration these the catholic and apostolic church anathematises.

    You could check out here as well: http://www.vatican.va/offices/papal_docs_list.html




    Offline Alex117

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    « Reply #11 on: October 20, 2012, 12:21:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    Good question! And sharp of you to see it.

    Ah, I only caught it because I read:

    "for us humans and for our salvation he came down and became incarnate"

    And I was like, "Whoa, whoa, wait, they would have never said it like that. Then I went searching for an alternate text and found the Catholic Encyclopedia version which correctly states "men".

    Quote from: Nadir
    You could check out here as well: http://www.vatican.va/offices/papal_docs_list.html

    I scrolled through the list of documents, and the vast majority of them were written by conciliar popes, especially John Paul II, and I would rather not read those. I couldn't find the texts for any of the councils on the Vatican website, so it appears that the Catholic Encyclopedia is the best source for the most original English translations of the councils.

    Online Nadir

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    « Reply #12 on: October 20, 2012, 02:06:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: Alex117
    I scrolled through the list of documents, and the vast majority of them were written by conciliar popes, especially John Paul II, and I would rather not read those. I couldn't find the texts for any of the councils on the Vatican website, so it appears that the Catholic Encyclopedia is the best source for the most original English translations of the councils.


    Well, how about that?

    Of course, the conciliar popes have written more that any popes before them. It looks like Leo Xiii was the first pope to issue an encyclical! Maybe they just don't want you reading that stuff that's passed its use-by date.
    :rolleyes:

     

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