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Author Topic: Challoner vs Haydock  (Read 2532 times)

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Re: Challoner vs Haydock
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2019, 12:35:02 PM »
Hi, Ascanio.

Bishop Challoner revised the original Douay Rheims translation. The Haydock Bible uses the Challoner revision as Bible text and adds additional, copious annotations.

Here's a good discussion and comparison of the original DR and the Challoner:


https://forums.catholic.com/t/challoner-revision-to-dr-bible/396897

DR
The link is very sueful, thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

What does it mean: "revision"? I imagined comments but, if Haydock added comments, then I must be in error. Does "revision" mean correction? Why would someone correct our Sacred Text?

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Challoner vs Haydock
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2019, 12:45:54 PM »
On the contrary, there is little that is good in the linked discussion. It is a morass of ignorance, misinformation, and misdirection, not the least of which is the mischaracterization of the remarks of Cardinals Newman and Manning. Both men were admirers of Bishop Challoner's work, which succeeded in (1) correcting numerous errors of translation in the original DR, (2) taking advantage of both the Clementine Vulgate and other fully approved Latin, Hebrew, and Greek sources either unknown or unavailable to Gregory Martin and his associates, and (3) using an English vocabulary that reflected the extraordinarily changed nature of the language in the two-century interim.

Do not believe anyone who says that the English of the DR is closer to the meaning of the Vulgate's Latin than the Challoner revision. Such a person knows nothing of Latin, English, or the transitory nature of vernacular languages.

There are at least half a dozen threads here at CI where this matter is discussed with more knowledge and insight than at the linked site's thread. Since Matthew has been good enough to save virtually everything ever published here, it's a pity that the archives are so widely ignored in favor of reinventing the wheel every six months.

The discussion identifies many of the issues and is fine for a point of departure into them. It is "good" in that sense. I wasn't endorsing it. And I wasn't ignoring what is here. I did a quick Google search for Ascanio and grabbed the link to the article to, again, give him something that identifies some of the issues. Glad you gave him more.

As to "mischaracterization" of Cardinals Newman and Wiseman (not Card. Manning), they simply QUOTE the CE (did you check the link?).


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Challoner vs Haydock
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2019, 12:55:21 PM »
The link is very sueful, thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

What does it mean: "revision"? I imagined comments but, if Haydock added comments, then I must be in error. Does "revision" mean correction? Why would someone correct our Sacred Text?
Bishop Challoner made changes to the translation, the Biblical text, of the original DR. Some say for the better, some say for the worse. I have and read both. Don't have an opinion either way, but the original DR was written during the Prot revolt and its annotations take a good shot at the errors of the "adversaries." Not that the Haydock doesn't take a similar cognizance; it also will incorporate some original DR notes. 

The "sacred text" here is not in English, of course, but in Greek (NT and Septuagint OT, but also Hebrew for OT) originally and then authoritatively translated into Latin by St. Jerome (the Vulgate). Both the original DR and I think the Challoner used the Vulgate as primary text. So the neither the original DR, nor the Haydock, is "sacred text" not to be revised in the sense that the original Greek and the Church approved Latin Vulgate (for me and many Catholics) are.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Challoner vs Haydock
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2019, 01:01:36 PM »
A "Catholic Answers" thread? Really? Those jokers over there don't even have a problem with the NAB. The examples they give of parallel translations have to have been cherry-picked to show minimal changes between the true Doway-Rhemes and Bp. Challoner's Douay-Rheims revision. In actual fact, there are some substantial differences. The Doway-Rhemes was translated pretty much directly from Jerome's Vulgate, which was written in Latin in the late 4th century. One thing very notable about Jerome's translation is that he translated the Old Testament directly from the Hebrew back then. Later translators pride themselves on incorporating the original Hebrew, Greek, etc. sources in their version, but there's a big problem that no one talks about -- by the time of the Challoner revision the oldest version of the Old Testament extant in Hebrew was the "Masoretic text," written between the 6th and 10th centuries. It was "corrected" by тαℓмυdic "scholars" in Babylon and Palestine. And that's what is used as primary source material in all modern Bibles.
Have at it with Claudel. 

Hey, for both of you: I wasn't sneakily promoting Catholic Answers. I feel like I need to go to Confession here.  :o

What a crowd!!

Re: Challoner vs Haydock
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2019, 01:18:31 PM »
There are at least half a dozen threads here at CI where this matter is discussed with more knowledge and insight than at the linked site's thread. Since Matthew has been good enough to save virtually everything ever published here, it's a pity that the archives are so widely ignored in favor of reinventing the wheel every six months.
Can you, please send me alternative links to those sent by MiserereMeiDeus, kindly?

In any case, I am still confused. What difference is there between Challoner and Haydock?

Challoner revised (i.e. traslated) and Haydock commented? So, all Challoner Bibles are DR Bibles and all Haydock Bibles are Challoned, DR Bibles?

Am I correct?

If not, kindly, could you help me understand the difference?

Finally, commenting your challenges to the link, in my own reasearches here I have come across Dr Von Peters translitteration of "a" version of the Bible (I don't remember if from vulgate or... ).

I came across many who mentioned that the Challoner Bible was not based on the correct DR but on other close translations.

If it were true that Challoner translates "Christus" into "annointed" then I have a problem with the Challoner translation.

*]Vulgate. Ingrediemur enim in requiem, qui credidimus: quemadmodum dixit: Sicut juravi in ira mea: Si introibunt in requiem meam: et quidem operibus ab institutione mundi perfectis.
*]Rheims. For we, that have believed, shall enter into the rest, as he said, As I sware in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest; and truly the works from the foundation of the world being perfected.
*]Challoner. For we who believed shall enter into rest; as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, If they shall enter into my rest; and this, when the works from the foundation of the world were finished.

It seems a small departure from the Vulgate but there is some difference.


Kindly, could you comment?