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Author Topic: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?  (Read 8164 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
« Reply #105 on: February 08, 2024, 05:02:18 PM »
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  • :confused:  So an atheist who rejects God is not in worse shape than a catholic who struggles with anger?  Certainly the atheist is more in need of God's mercy, as he (humanly speaking) has 0.01% of salvation in his present state.  He’s not even “in the ballpark” of salvation. 

    No, the one man doesn't need "more mercy." Both men need the grace of God, they need God working to save them. Period.

    Does God work "harder" for the one man than another to save them?

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #106 on: February 08, 2024, 06:32:55 PM »
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  • No, the one man doesn't need "more mercy." Both men need the grace of God, they need God working to save them. Period.

    Does God work "harder" for the one man than another to save them?


    You appear to confusing "mercy" with grace, in particular the efficacious grace for salvation, not to mention that there's no mention anywhere of "more" or "most" mercy, but rather the "most" qualifies the expression "in need", those who are most in need of God's mercy, and in the context of this prayer is practically the equivalent of the original expression, "the most abandoned," i.e. those who have no one to pray for them, those who are most removed from God and the Church.  This has nothing to do with how hard God has to "work" for the salvation of an individual, though the amount of grace that might be sufficient and efficacious for the salvation of one soul may not suffice for the salvation of another, based on the degree to which they cooperate with such grace.  In a sense, these expressions view God from the human perspective rather from His, just as we often say that God has more wrath toward one person (say, a grave sinner, a sodomite) than another.  In reality, God is perfectly simple and does not change, or have the aspect or more or less, but viewed from the human perspective we receive more or less of his wrath or "anger", which is the corollary to God's mercy, compassion (mercy = "misericordia").  God's mercy and justice are often viewed as inversely proportional, so that those who have incurred more of His wrath are there therefore more in need of His mercy.  You seem to be splitting hairs here that you appear to have invented yourself.

    Similarly, Our Lady has spoken of holding back God's wrath upon the world, which "increases" (in a manner of speaking), quoad nos, as the world becomes more sinful.  As the world becomes more sinful and incurs more of God's wrath, and therefore becomes more in need of His mercy.  These are expressions quoad nos and not quoad Deum, as God does not have more justice or more mercy at any given time in and of Himself.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #107 on: February 08, 2024, 06:55:04 PM »
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  • We are indeed "drinking" a different brew on this.

    We are born condemned simply by our conception, as sons and daughters of Adam. No one "condemned" person needs "more mercy" than another of the condemned to escape hell. Hell is the default for all men. We are all conceived and born as "children of wrath."...

    It is simply not true that some condemned men "especially" need mercy. Heaven is granted to some men while all equally deserve eternal death, like the two thieves hanging next to Christ on Calvary.

    ...the Fatima prayer borders on theologically insanity if we are praying that all men go to heaven despite the revelation of God that "all men" don't...

    You may be right, - we don't know, and we're not required to agree with you. So I'll continue to "drink" what I"m drinking, thanks.

    Decem, you need to check the label on that brew, mate!

    Right here and now, as we pray, we are not all unbaptised newborn babies condemned to hell. There are souls of good will, living in the grace of God, whom Our Heavenly Father looks upon with delight. And there are those at enmity with God who are on the brink of damnation. If God were to call each and everyone of us to account at this moment, you say there would be no difference in the need of these souls? You need to do a course in the meaning of words!

    "Pray very much and make sacrifices for sinners for many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray and make sacrifices for them". If your common sense doesn't tell you, these words of Our Lady of Fatima do: sinners (unrepentant being implied) have greater need, here and now, than the just, of prayer to obtain God's mercy for them to save their souls.

    "There shall be joy in Heaven upon one sinner that doth penance more than upon ninety-nine just that need not penance".

    One who is gravely sick needs a physician, the healthy do not. Those in the state of sin especially need prayer and penance.

    "Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ".

    The grace of God truly makes us worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven. Those at enmity with God especially need His mercy that they may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. Even more urgently do those poor souls in the state of sin who are now at the moment of death. This is not rocket science, Decem, but I fear that is what you are trying to make it.

    If not all souls go to Heaven, as you point out, do you mean to suggest that we should not pray for all? It is God's Will that all should be saved. We pray for God's Will: "Thy Will be done on earth"... yet alas, it will often not be done (we are talking here about God's antecedent Will, the obvious meaning of the prayer). It may very well be that this or that soul did not go to Heaven, because I did not pray and sacrifice for him, because I was not faithful to the inspirations of the Holy Ghost, because I did not become the saint that God wanted me to become. Which of us can free ourselves from guilt on this account? How many souls might have gone to Heaven if I had been faithful? It is a sobering and humbling meditation...






    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #108 on: February 09, 2024, 06:11:08 AM »
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  • Decem, you need to check the label on that brew, mate!

    Right here and now, as we pray, we are not all unbaptised newborn babies condemned to hell. There are souls of good will, living in the grace of God, whom Our Heavenly Father looks upon with delight. And there are those at enmity with God who are on the brink of damnation. If God were to call each and everyone of us to account at this moment, you say there would be no difference in the need of these souls? You need to do a course in the meaning of words!

    "Pray very much and make sacrifices for sinners for many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray and make sacrifices for them". If your common sense doesn't tell you, these words of Our Lady of Fatima do: sinners (unrepentant being implied) have greater need, here and now, than the just, of prayer to obtain God's mercy for them to save their souls.

    "There shall be joy in Heaven upon one sinner that doth penance more than upon ninety-nine just that need not penance".

    One who is gravely sick needs a physician, the healthy do not. Those in the state of sin especially need prayer and penance.

    "Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ".

    The grace of God truly makes us worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven. Those at enmity with God especially need His mercy that they may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. Even more urgently do those poor souls in the state of sin who are now at the moment of death. This is not rocket science, Decem, but I fear that is what you are trying to make it.

    If not all souls go to Heaven, as you point out, do you mean to suggest that we should not pray for all? It is God's Will that all should be saved. We pray for God's Will: "Thy Will be done on earth"... yet alas, it will often not be done (we are talking here about God's antecedent Will, the obvious meaning of the prayer). It may very well be that this or that soul did not go to Heaven, because I did not pray and sacrifice for him, because I was not faithful to the inspirations of the Holy Ghost, because I did not become the saint that God wanted me to become. Which of us can free ourselves from guilt on this account? How many souls might have gone to Heaven if I had been faithful? It is a sobering and humbling meditation...

    PV,

    This reads like incoherent emoting. We are talking specifically about the Fatima prayer, and this petition in it: "lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of your mercy." Specifically, I am raising an issue with the qualification, "especially those more in need of your mercy."

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    Those at enmity with God especially need His mercy that they may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

    There are two relevant states, at enmity with God, or not at enmity with God. You can think of them more properly as a state of justice and a state of injustice. A man qua man is born in a state of injustice. You mentioned unbaptized children. Very good. A good example. They are all in need of mercy, equally. Not some more than others. One child doesn't need "more mercy" than another to enter into a state of justification.

    A justified man who falls from his justification because he lusted after a woman who wasn't his wife is no different than a man who fell from justification by killing someone as far as a state of justice, God's justice - NOT MAN'S sense of justice - is concerned. Both are at enmity with God, and are worthy of hell in the mind of God, who demands perfection. I believe that is a major thrust of Our Lord in the Sermon on the Mount. To be absolved, one doesn't need "more mercy" than another. One may have to do more penance, yes . . .  which gets us more to the point at issue.

    Some souls in purgatory need "more mercy" because they have to do more penance for their greater sins. One of those "poor souls" didn't need "more mercy" before death to pass over again into a state of justification or to be forgiven before death. The only ones who need "more mercy" to enter heaven are those who already have been justified and made "worthy" of heaven by application of the Precious Blood and merits of Christ - those who have received the same mercy which is sufficient for all to ultimately achieve the beatific vision. They need "more mercy" to end their greater purgatorial sufferings and to more promptly, sooner, enter into heaven.


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    If not all souls go to Heaven, as you point out, do you mean to suggest that we should not pray for all? It is God's Will that all should be saved. We pray for God's Will: "Thy Will be done on earth"... yet alas, it will often not be done (we are talking here about God's antecedent Will, the obvious meaning of the prayer). It may very well be that this or that soul did not go to Heaven, because I did not pray and sacrifice for him, because I was not faithful to the inspirations of the Holy Ghost, because I did not become the saint that God wanted me to become. Which of us can free ourselves from guilt on this account? How many souls might have gone to Heaven if I had been faithful? It is a sobering and humbling meditation...

    I already said that we should pray for specific people and that God may use our prayers as a means of saving someone - those prayers increase charity and benefit both parties, and benefit the one praying regardless of success. But I would take great issue with your claim that someone else wasn't saved because you or I failed to pray for them. St. Alphonsus says this in his book, The Great Means of Prayer:



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    The first condition then of prayer is, that you make it "for yourself"; because St. Thomas holds, that one man cannot "ex condigno" [i.e. in the fitness of things] obtain for another eternal life; nor, consequently, even those graces which are requisite for his salvation. Since, as he says, the promise is made not to others, but only to those that pray: "He shall give to you." Nevertheless, there are many theologians, Cornelius a Lapide, Sylvester, Tolet, Habert, and others, who hold the opposite doctrine, on the authority of St. Basil, who teaches that prayer, by virtue of God's promise, is infallibly efficacious, even for those for whom we pray, provided they put no positive impediment in the way. And they support their doctrine by Scripture: "Pray one for another, that you may be saved; for the continual prayer of the just man availeth much." [James 5: 16] "Pray for them that persecute and calumniate you." [Luke 6: 28]


    Liguori, Alphonsus. Prayer: The Great Means of Salvation and of Perfection (p. 39). Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.

    I do not think that that theological question was settled by the Blessed Mother in an apparition we are not even required to believe, but that is what you are implying. And you might not like my "brew," but I think it's a brew the Church allows me to drink.

    I do not believe the petition of the Fatima Prayer makes theological sense if you take it to mean that some unjustified men are "most in need" of mercy - the implication being that "more" mercy is required for some men, or that some men at enmity with God need "more mercy" to be made right with Him and are therefore different in God' mind in terms of their eternal status. No, I say. There is justified and unjustified, like pregnant and not pregnant.

    I think my view is in accord with the basic theology of Trent and in accord with Catholic orthodoxy. One is in a state of justification, or not. The same mercy translates sinners of different stripes into the Kingdom of the Son, removing them from the alienated state of children of Adam. That applies both to those in need of initial justification, children, as well as adults who have relapsed into the dominion of Satan. It's the same mercy for all that saves.



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    Council of Trent, Session VI

    CHAPTER IV.


    A Description is interwoven[16] of the Justification of the Impious, and of the Manner thereof under the State of Grace.

    By which words a description of the Justification of the impious is interwoven, to the effect that it is a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, into the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God,[17] through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the Gospel has been promulgated, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration,[18] or the desire thereof, as it is written; Unless a man be born again of water and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    CHAPTER XIV.


    On the Fallen, and their Restoration.

    But those who through sin have fallen away from the received grace of justification, may again be justified, when, God exciting them, through the sacrament of penance, they, by the merit of Christ, shall have obtained the recovery of the grace lost. For this manner of justification is unto the fallen the reparation, which the holy fathers have aptly called a second plank after the shipwreck of grace lost.[79] For, on behalf of those who after baptism fall into sins, Christ Jesus instituted the sacrament of penance, when He said, Receive ye the Holy Ghost; whosesoever sins ye shall remit, they are remitted unto them, and whosesoever sins ye shall retain, they are retained.[80] Whence it is to be taught, that the penitence of a Christian man after his fall, is very different from that at his baptism; and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart,[81] but also the sacramental confession of the same sins, at least in desire, and to be made in its season, and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, almsgivings, prayers, and the other pious exercises of a spiritual life; not indeed for the eternal punishment, which is, together with the guilt, remitted, either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament; but for the temporal punishment, which, as the sacred writings teach, is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, unto those who, ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, have grieved the Holy Spirit,[82] and have not feared to defile the temple of God.[83] Concerning which penitence it is written: Remember from whence thou art fallen; do penance, and do the first works.[84] And again: The sorrow that is according to God worketh penance steadfast unto salvation.[85] And again: Do penance, and bring forth fruits worthy of penance.[86]

    The "same mercy" justifies initially and restores. The "more mercy" and prayers are needed for those whose sins, and punishment, require more penance and in a true sense "more mercy" to end a greater suffering. If some of the damned in hell suffer greater punishments, they are beyond the reach or our or anyone's prayers at that point, and such prayers for them would be useless. I do not believe Our Lady was asking us to pray for them, or that her prayer indicates some sinners are "most in need" of mercy - all are equally in need to be made right with God and receive the justification that leads to heaven. Some suffering souls in purgatory need "more mercy" to end their greater sufferings and penances, and that's why we continue to offer the holy sacrifice again and again and again for souls already bound for heaven by the saving mercy of Christ.


    Pray for all men, all sinners, by all means - in the sense of not excluding anyone from one's prayer, hoping for the salvation of this or that man or woman, whoever they are. They may indeed be saved someday. But I believe Our Lady was referring to efficacious prayers at Fatima, and one may indeed pray efficaciously for "all men," all souls, every single one, in purgatory, and "especially for those [truly, theologically speaking] in need of more mercy." 


    DR

     

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.