Author Topic: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years? (Read 8168 times)

2Vermont · « **Reply #15 on:** September 04, 2023, 07:21:24 PM »

Quote from: Yeti on September 04, 2023, 05:55:56 PM

.

That's not a problem. If we had to worry about how heretics might twist some text to suit their agenda, we'd have to get rid of the Bible itself. :)

Yes, hence the reason why I put the word problem in quotes.

Texana · « **Reply #16 on:** September 06, 2023, 05:48:34 PM »

Quote from: Matthew on September 03, 2023, 10:40:44 PM

I'm kind of disturbed and hugely suspicious whenever Catholics many decades before Vatican II and the entire history of the Trad movement (1969 - 2023 the present day) were allegedly wrong about something.

I mean, at this point, the "regular" O My Jesus prayer is TRADITIONAL, even if it doesn't mention Purgatory, even if Masons conspired to suppress that line. Think of how divisive it would be to try to correct it now. We wouldn't be able to say Rosaries together! A good portion of people would, for good reason, stick with the "traditional" version of the prayer, while others -- the doctrinal purists -- would switch to the new one, come what may. And what would come, in my opinion, would be needless division and fighting. And the devil would be laughing his burning red ass off the whole time.

Much more evil would come of it, than the microscopic good done by professing belief in purgatory in this particular prayer. Guess what? Trads already believe in Purgatory. We're not Novus Ordo. There's no falling-away from belief in Purgatory in the Trad world. Purgatory doesn't have to be literally EVERYWHERE in EVERY SINGLE PRAYER for us to keep believing in it. As long as it has a decent presence overall, the Faithful will continue to believe in it. Our priests preach it. Our traditional practices reinforce it. Our Traditional artwork teaches it. Our Mass mentions it. We still celebrate November as the Month of the Holy Souls and Trads do plenty of things to celebrate that month properly. Etc.

Do I need to remind some that we Trads still celebrate Requiem Masses with black vestments? The whole TRADITIONAL MASS for the faithful departed assumes they're in Purgatory -- not heaven. We don't eulogize or canonize the deceased, as they do in the Novus Ordo with their white vestments. So again, it's just not an issue in the Trad world.

This new version of the prayer is a solution in search of a problem.

The fact is, God has allowed us all to learn the "imperfect" version -- so it must be His will. I would say it's TOO LATE to go back and fix it now. We have 105 years of Tradition, of habit, of precedent, that would have to be undone and wiped out. The Church doesn't work that way. Things with "venerable usage" get preserved.

Dear Matthew,
Why can't we pray the exact words Our Lady requested the children to repeat when praying HER ROSARY? God does not will error, either active or permissive.

Yeti · « **Reply #17 on:** September 06, 2023, 06:00:12 PM »

Quote from: Texana on September 06, 2023, 05:48:34 PM

Dear Matthew,
Why can't we pray the exact words Our Lady requested the children to repeat when praying HER ROSARY? God does not will error, either active or permissive.

.

Well, most of us don't know Portugese.

I think the problem here is that there is a long-established translation in English, that people recently have started to claim is incorrect or has other problems.

Texana · « **Reply #18 on:** September 06, 2023, 06:54:50 PM »

Dear Yeti,
The precise quote from Lucia to Fr. Manuel Nunes Formigao on the night of the apparition in 1917: (Translated into English): "She did teach us, and she wants us to say it after every mystery from the Rosary." "Do you know it by heart?" "I do know." "Say it..."

"Oh my Jesus, forgive us and spare us from the fires of hell and relieve the souls from the Purgatory, especially the most abandoned ones."

The question arose in 1947 from the translation of the word, "alminhas" which means little souls in Purgatory and also the oratories for the souls in Purgatory that Lucia had in her parish church.

The quote is in the book written by Fr. Formigao in 1921, Os Episodios Maravilhosos de Fatima under the pseudonym of Visconde de Montelo. He was appointed by the Bishop of Leiria, Jose Alves Correia da Silva, to make an impartial investigation for the purpose of assessing the truth of the apparitions.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #19 on:** September 06, 2023, 07:21:41 PM »

Quote

and relieve the souls from the Purgatory, especially the most abandoned ones."

This is not essentially different that what 99.9% people pray in english. The meaning is the same.

Quote

Dear Matthew,
Why can't we pray the exact words Our Lady requested the children to repeat when praying HER ROSARY? God does not will error, either active or permissive.

Your definition of "error" is way too extreme. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Matthew · « **Reply #20 on:** September 06, 2023, 08:01:09 PM »

Quote from: Texana on September 06, 2023, 05:48:34 PM

Dear Matthew,
Why can't we pray the exact words Our Lady requested the children to repeat when praying HER ROSARY? God does not will error, either active or permissive.

We're not talking about error though. It's not a question of error. It's a question of some new translation.

Texana · « **Reply #21 on:** September 06, 2023, 08:38:55 PM »

Dear Matthew,

The correct, precise words spoken by Our Lady were published in 1921, by Fr. Formigao, the Bishop of Leiria's investigator of the apparitions. In the late 1940's, the prayer changed in the English translation from what were Our Lady's words in 1917. It is similar to the ICEL translation of "pro multis" to "for all". The lack of precision creates ambiguity.

What is it about men not wanting to do exactly what Our Lady asks? She told the children what to pray verbatim. She gave specific instructions required for the consecration of Russia. And what about the 3rd Secret? Was it revealed to the world by 1960, as She requested? And still....here we are.

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #22 on:** September 06, 2023, 10:08:44 PM »

Quote from: Texana on September 06, 2023, 06:54:50 PM

Dear Yeti,
The precise quote from Lucia to Fr. Manuel Nunes Formigao on the night of the apparition in 1917: (Translated into English): "She did teach us, and she wants us to say it after every mystery from the Rosary." "Do you know it by heart?" "I do know." "Say it..."

"Oh my Jesus, forgive us and spare us from the fires of hell and relieve the souls from the Purgatory, especially the most abandoned ones."

The question arose in 1947 from the translation of the word, "alminhas" which means little souls in Purgatory and also the oratories for the souls in Purgatory that Lucia had in her parish church.

The quote is in the book written by Fr. Formigao in 1921, Os Episodios Maravilhosos de Fatima under the pseudonym of Visconde de Montelo. He was appointed by the Bishop of Leiria, Jose Alves Correia da Silva, to make an impartial investigation for the purpose of assessing the truth of the apparitions.

I thought this got debunked?

What about the latin prayer?

Quote

O (mi) Bóne Iésu,
líbera nos a peccatís nóstris;
líbera nos ab ígnibus gehénnae;
perdúc in paradísum ómnes animás præsértim
eas quae plus misericórdia tua indígent!

This is the one I know and have been doing.

Matthew · « **Reply #23 on:** September 06, 2023, 10:34:35 PM »

Quote from: Texana on September 06, 2023, 08:38:55 PM

Dear Matthew,

The correct, precise words spoken by Our Lady were published in 1921, by Fr. Formigao, the Bishop of Leiria's investigator of the apparitions. In the late 1940's, the prayer changed in the English translation from what were Our Lady's words in 1917. It is similar to the ICEL translation of "pro multis" to "for all". The lack of precision creates ambiguity.

So what? It invalidates the prayer? You bring up "pro multis" which is part of the WORDS OF CONSECRATION -- if you don't have a Consecration, you don't have a Holy Sacrifice, you don't have a Mass.

We're talking about a prayer.

You complain about lack of precision and "ambiguity"? WHO CARES! Are you suggesting Trads will lose belief in purgatory? Guess what, it didn't happen, 80 years later. All the stuff we complain about in the Novus Ordo (downplaying Sacrificial aspect of Mass, suppressing Purgatory, devotion to Our Lady, etc.) DID result in changed beliefs. So while in the case of the Novus Ordo we have 50 years of proof to bolster our point -- in this case, we have even more time (almost 100 years) of proof that goes AGAINST your point (ambiguity, danger, etc.)

I'll repeat my opinion on the issue: it's NOT WORTH all the splits, bad blood, sins, etc. that would result if some Trads tried to impose this NEW translation on other Trads. Some would rally under "Tradition! It was good enough for my dad and granddad, it's good enough for me!" and others would rally under "Purity! It's what our Lady asked for. It's better. That's good enough for me!"

Both sides have a point, both sides fighting to the death to convince the other. Splits, feuds, and strife ensues. And the devil laughs all the way to the bank.

And for what? So Trads can be taught in THIS PARTICULAR PRAYER that Purgatory exists? Guess what? Belief in Purgatory is NOT A PROBLEM among any Trad circles I've ever seen or heard of.

Anyhow, if this prayer isn't the best translation of the original Portuguese, I'm sure Our Lady understands. Would she want us to go on a quixotic quest to impose a new translation on the Catholic world after 75 years? I doubt it. The "normal" translation is a fait accompli, a done deed.

How many sins, how many splits, how many broken social connections is this new translation worth? I'd say less than 3. But there would be hundreds, if not thousands. NOT WORTH IT in my opinion.

How many people will refuse to say the Rosary with other Catholics due to this issue? I'd say this attempt to rock the boat is not a good thing.

Matthew · « **Reply #24 on:** September 06, 2023, 10:45:27 PM »

by the way, this new translation is extremely poor. we don't say "the Purgatory" in English. We say "Purgatory" just like any other place.
It's like this translation is TRYING to be different, singular, shocking.

Or these people don't understand the concept of translating a phrase INTO another language.

me llamo Mateo is NOT translated "I call myself Matthew".
Properly translated into English, it would be "My name is Matthew".
Likewise, translating "My name is Matthew" into proper Spanish would not be "Mi nombre es Mateo" but rather "Me llamo Mateo".
No one is interested in the grammar, particles and nuances of the source language. A translation is an EQUIVALENT expression, understandable in another language.

Plenus Venter · « **Reply #25 on:** September 06, 2023, 10:51:56 PM »

Quote from: Texana on September 06, 2023, 08:38:55 PM

Dear Matthew,

The correct, precise words spoken by Our Lady were published in 1921, by Fr. Formigao, the Bishop of Leiria's investigator of the apparitions. In the late 1940's, the prayer changed in the English translation from what were Our Lady's words in 1917. It is similar to the ICEL translation of "pro multis" to "for all". The lack of precision creates ambiguity.

What is it about men not wanting to do exactly what Our Lady asks? She told the children what to pray verbatim. She gave specific instructions required for the consecration of Russia. And what about the 3rd Secret? Was it revealed to the world by 1960, as She requested? And still....here we are.

You wild Texans just put those smokin' guns down and read these articles:

THE PRAYER FOR SOULS | The Fatima Center

Who Are the Souls “Most in Need”? | The Fatima Center

Here is an excerpt:

But to return to the original question, how do we know which is the correct version?

Answer: Through Sister Lucia’s explicit clarification.

In a 1946 interview with Canon Barthas on this controversy, Sister Lucia set the record straight. The Fatima Decade Prayer does not refer to the Holy Souls in Purgatory at all, she assured him, since they are on a sure path to Heaven, but rather to unrepentant sinners since they are in grave danger of damnation. (See Frère Michel’s account of the interview linked below.)

Moreover, it was in the manner in which the prayer is currently recited that the child Lucia related it to her pastor, Father Ferreira, in an interrogation of August 21, 1917, only a little more than a month after Our Lady had taught it to the children. This is also the way Sister Lucia recorded it in her Third and Fourth Memoirs in 1941, noting explicitly in her Third Memoir, “Now Your Excellency will understand how my own impression was that the final words of this prayer refer to souls in greatest danger of damnation, or those who are nearest to it.” We reproduce here the relevant lines from the manuscript of the Fourth Memoir:

(See António Maria Martins, S.J., Memórias e Cartas da Irmã Lúcia, pp. 340-343.)

How, then, did the confusion arise? It was Canon Manuel Formigao who introduced the erroneous version, having mistakenly assumed from the Portuguese word “alminhas” [little souls] that the prayer’s object was the poor souls in Purgatory. With good intentions, he was led by this error to rephrase the prayer to reflect that meaning. In his book Os Episódios Maravilhosos de Fátima, published in 1921, he gave this (as he later admitted) skewed report of his interview with Lucia:

(Emphasis added. Our thanks to a native Portuguese friend of Our Lady’s Apostolate for translating the above excerpt into English.)

Once we understand that the confusion originated in 1921, it is easy to see why many of the pilgrims to Fatima in those early decades (20s and 30s) recited the prayer in an erroneous manner. Moreover, we can see why Sister Lucia deemed it important to make the necessary correction through her Memoirs and interviews. Finally, we can even understand how today, more than 100 years after Our Lady appeared at Fatima, researchers might uncover testimony from Portuguese faithful living in the 1920s or even the work of Canon Formigao, and mistakenly think that the inclusion of ‘Purgatory” is a more authentic rendition. Informed by this article, devotees of Our Lady of Fatima may with all charity correct these errors.

In addition, the eminent Fatima scholar Frère Michel gives a thorough account of how the confusion came about, and how the whole question was finally resolved, which is reproduced at our website article, [color=var(--cs-color-primary)]“The Prayer for Souls.”[/url][/i][/font][/size][/color]

Plenus Venter · « **Reply #26 on:** September 06, 2023, 10:54:59 PM »

It was Canon Manuel Formigao who introduced the erroneous version, having mistakenly assumed from the Portuguese word “alminhas” [little souls] that the prayer’s object was the poor souls in Purgatory. With good intentions, he was led by this error to rephrase the prayer to reflect that meaning. In his book Os Episódios Maravilhosos de Fátima, published in 1921, he gave this (as he later admitted) skewed report of his interview with Lucia:

Did you get that? Is there any reason to dispute it?

trad123 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 06, 2023, 10:55:28 PM »

Quote from: Plenus Venter on September 06, 2023, 10:51:56 PM

In a 1946 interview with Canon Barthas on this controversy, Sister Lucia set the record straight. The Fatima Decade Prayer does not refer to the Holy Souls in Purgatory at all, she assured him, since they are on a sure path to Heaven, but rather to unrepentant sinners since they are in grave danger of damnation.
[ . . . ]
How, then, did the confusion arise? It was Canon Manuel Formigao who introduced the erroneous version, having mistakenly assumed from the Portuguese word “alminhas” [little souls] that the prayer’s object was the poor souls in Purgatory. With good intentions, he was led by this error to rephrase the prayer to reflect that meaning. In his book Os Episódios Maravilhosos de Fátima, published in 1921, he gave this (as he later admitted) skewed report of his interview with Lucia:

Thank you for this.

2Vermont · « **Reply #28 on:** September 07, 2023, 05:50:12 AM »

Quote from: Plenus Venter on September 06, 2023, 10:51:56 PM

Answer: Through Sister Lucia’s explicit clarification.
In a 1946 interview with Canon Barthas on this controversy, Sister Lucia set the record straight. The Fatima Decade Prayer does not refer to the Holy Souls in Purgatory at all, she assured him, since they are on a sure path to Heaven, but rather to unrepentant sinners since they are in grave danger of damnation. (See Frère Michel’s account of the interview linked below.)

Thank you for confirming my thoughts on this.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #29 on:** September 07, 2023, 06:04:25 AM »

So there's no explicit mention of Purgatory at all in the original prayer. This is a question of interpretation. It's the equivalent of someone seeing a prayer in English for "poor souls". In English, it's common to refer to the souls in Purgatory as "Poor Souls", so it could mean the "Poor Souls in Purgatory", but it could also just mean "poor souls" (those on the way to hell). That's what's going on here, and the quote by Fr. Alonso said it was a "POSSIBLE" interpretation, but by no means certain. And yet, I don't recall ANY TIME during Our Lady's message at Fatima where she mentioned the Poor Souls in Purgatory, except one time, almost in passing, where she mentioned that some girl who had died would be in Purgatory until the end of time. Our Lady was focused almost entirely on the souls going to Hell, thus the Second Secret, the vision of the souls in Hell. So for all our Lady's solicitude for souls going to Hell, this prayer meaning the Souls in Purgatory would be coming entirely out of left field. Finally, we have the post just above here where Sister Lucia where she clearly states that it's NOT about the souls in Purgatory.

So message to Matthew in OP, IMO, completely wrong.

There is a tendency for people to want to seem "smarter" than everyone else with little things like this. It's almost a gnostic attitude where "I know something you don't know." or "I know the REAL meaning of Fatima."

Author Topic: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years? (Read 8168 times)

2Vermont

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Texana

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Yeti

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Texana

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Pax Vobis

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Matthew

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Texana

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AnthonyPadua

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Matthew

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Matthew

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Plenus Venter

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Plenus Venter

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trad123

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2Vermont

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Ladislaus

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