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Author Topic: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?  (Read 8160 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
« on: September 03, 2023, 10:34:17 PM »
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  • A fellow Trad Catholic shared this with me --

    Rosary Fatima Prayer
    ======================
    Sister Lucy Truth: RadTrad Thomist 
    radtradthomist.chojnowski.me

    Correcting the coverup of the Fatima message. The correct translation of Fatima prayer, for the help of Souls in Purgatory.


    On the reverse side:

    Fatima Rosary Prayer
    ------------------------
    O my Jesus, forgive us and save us from the fires of hell and deliver the souls from the Purgatory, especially the most abandoned ones.

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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #1 on: September 03, 2023, 10:40:44 PM »
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  • I'm kind of disturbed and hugely suspicious whenever Catholics many decades before Vatican II and the entire history of the Trad movement (1969 - 2023 the present day) were allegedly wrong about something.

    I mean, at this point, the "regular" O My Jesus prayer is TRADITIONAL, even if it doesn't mention Purgatory, even if Masons conspired to suppress that line. Think of how divisive it would be to try to correct it now. We wouldn't be able to say Rosaries together! A good portion of people would, for good reason, stick with the "traditional" version of the prayer, while others -- the doctrinal purists -- would switch to the new one, come what may. And what would come, in my opinion, would be needless division and fighting. And the devil would be laughing his burning red ass off the whole time.

    Much more evil would come of it, than the microscopic good done by professing belief in purgatory in this particular prayer. Guess what? Trads already believe in Purgatory. We're not Novus Ordo. There's no falling-away from belief in Purgatory in the Trad world. Purgatory doesn't have to be literally EVERYWHERE in EVERY SINGLE PRAYER for us to keep believing in it. As long as it has a decent presence overall, the Faithful will continue to believe in it. Our priests preach it. Our traditional practices reinforce it. Our Traditional artwork teaches it. Our Mass mentions it. We still celebrate November as the Month of the Holy Souls and Trads do plenty of things to celebrate that month properly. Etc.

    Do I need to remind some that we Trads still celebrate Requiem Masses with black vestments? The whole TRADITIONAL MASS for the faithful departed assumes they're in Purgatory -- not heaven. We don't eulogize or canonize the deceased, as they do in the Novus Ordo with their white vestments. So again, it's just not an issue in the Trad world.

    This new version of the prayer is a solution in search of a problem.

    The fact is, God has allowed us all to learn the "imperfect" version -- so it must be His will. I would say it's TOO LATE to go back and fix it now. We have 105 years of Tradition, of habit, of precedent, that would have to be undone and wiped out. The Church doesn't work that way. Things with "venerable usage" get preserved.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #2 on: September 03, 2023, 10:48:04 PM »
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  • Just a quick search for materials in English:


    https://archive.org/details/fatimarosarybrie00cace/page/2/mode/2up


    Fatima and the rosary, published in 1947, shows the following, "and bring all souls to heaven, especially those which most need your help". 


    If anything else has been published in English prior to 1947, then it hasn't been uploaded yet, or perhaps it doesn't exist.

    Anything before 1947 is likely in Portuguese or another language.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #3 on: September 03, 2023, 10:57:22 PM »
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  • Our Lady of Fatima, Paul O'Sullivan, published 1935

    https://books.google.com/books?id=9zOinQEACAAJ


    I suppose no one has a copy of this?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #4 on: September 03, 2023, 11:01:32 PM »
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  • Lastly,

    Os episodios maravilhosos de Fátima, Manuel Nunes Formigão, published in 1921.

    The author was a Portuguese Catholic priest and journalist.


    https://books.google.com/books?id=Pa2hAQAACAAJ

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Nous

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #5 on: September 03, 2023, 11:10:37 PM »
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  • I saw a video once making a similar claim about the standard English translation of the Gloria Patri being mistranslated, and suggesting viewers say something else in English than the usual.

    My personal reaction to the suggestion was recoil. There’s a fairly good (I think) examination of conscience I use that, under the section for pride, subheading vanity, reads “Boasting, exaggeration, drawing attention to ourselves by talking too much, by claiming ability, wisdom, experience, or influence we do not have, or by eccentric or ostentatious behavior”.

    Seemed to me that deviating from translations even used by priests universally would fall dangerously close to “eccentric or ostentatious behavior” at best if done in public individually - and if done locally in some church as a group, I think it would certainly promote the sin until it reached endemic status within that church. Even done privately, I think, could lead down a path to internal vanity. Just my own thoughts.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #6 on: September 04, 2023, 06:02:20 AM »
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  • Hmm.  "Deliver souls from Purgatory".  Doesn't Catholic teaching say that God already does this?  Don't all souls in Purgatory go to Heaven? 

    It seems to me that the other way of translating it makes more sense:  To ask for God's mercy in leading all souls to Heaven, especially those who are in most in need. 

    The issue with that phrasing is that a NO/non-Traditional Catholic would take "lead all souls to Heaven" as meaning even those who are not Catholic without any need for them to be converted first.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #7 on: September 04, 2023, 07:25:31 AM »
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  • Fr. Joaquin Alonso, Chief Archivist of Fatima, insisted in1980 that Fr. Formigao was correct and that the word "alminhas" in the Fatima Rosary Prayer does not refer to "all souls" but to the Poor Souls in Purgatory. Even Frere Michel acknowledges this. (chojnowski.me)

    Footnote #378 from Frere Michel of the Holy Trinity's The Whole Truth About Fatima, Vol. 1: Science and the Facts
    (378) Let us point out that Father Alonso believed the theological interpretation of Canon Formigao could be justified, by insisting on the ordinary meaning of the word “alminhas”. According to him, the word “alminhas” settles the question: it refers to the souls in Purgatory. (Fatima, escuela de oracion, p. 105; 1980.)
    Who was Fr. Joaquin Alonso? He was the chief archivist of Fatima for 16 years and wrote a monumental work on the Fatima Message entitled, Fatima Texts and Critical Studies consists of 24 volumes and contains 5,396 docuмents. This text was withheld from publication, after it was completed in 1975, by the bishop of Leiria-Fatima, Alberto Cosme do Amaral. Since then, only TWO of the 24 volumes have been published and these two have been heavily edited. Why? Notice that the book, Fatima, escuela de oracion (Fatima, School of Prayer), in which he made the judgment about the Fatima Rosary Prayer was published in 1980, long after the "clarifications" of the 1940s. Also, question, Why is "the souls in purgatory" a "theological interpretation," rather than just a rendering of what the 3 Children of Fatima actually said and referred to when they were interviewed about this question in September 1917? What is going on here? 
    See Sister Lucy Truth's original finding on this matter at: https://sisterlucytruth.com/fatima-prayer/







    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #8 on: September 04, 2023, 08:09:32 AM »
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  • I'm kind of disturbed and hugely suspicious whenever Catholics many decades before Vatican II and the entire history of the Trad movement (1969 - 2023 the present day) were allegedly wrong about something.

    I mean, at this point, the "regular" O My Jesus prayer is TRADITIONAL, even if it doesn't mention Purgatory, even if Masons conspired to suppress that line. Think of how divisive it would be to try to correct it now. We wouldn't be able to say Rosaries together! A good portion of people would, for good reason, stick with the "traditional" version of the prayer, while others -- the doctrinal purists -- would switch to the new one, come what may. And what would come, in my opinion, would be needless division and fighting. And the devil would be laughing his burning red ass off the whole time.

    Much more evil would come of it, than the microscopic good done by professing belief in purgatory in this particular prayer. Guess what? Trads already believe in Purgatory. We're not Novus Ordo. There's no falling-away from belief in Purgatory in the Trad world. Purgatory doesn't have to be literally EVERYWHERE in EVERY SINGLE PRAYER for us to keep believing in it. As long as it has a decent presence overall, the Faithful will continue to believe in it. Our priests preach it. Our traditional practices reinforce it. Our Traditional artwork teaches it. Our Mass mentions it. We still celebrate November as the Month of the Holy Souls and Trads do plenty of things to celebrate that month properly. Etc.

    Do I need to remind some that we Trads still celebrate Requiem Masses with black vestments? The whole TRADITIONAL MASS for the faithful departed assumes they're in Purgatory -- not heaven. We don't eulogize or canonize the deceased, as they do in the Novus Ordo with their white vestments. So again, it's just not an issue in the Trad world.

    This new version of the prayer is a solution in search of a problem.

    The fact is, God has allowed us all to learn the "imperfect" version -- so it must be His will. I would say it's TOO LATE to go back and fix it now. We have 105 years of Tradition, of habit, of precedent, that would have to be undone and wiped out. The Church doesn't work that way. Things with "venerable usage" get preserved.
    I agree, Matthew.

    Dr Chojnowski's article quoted by Mr G may mislead you as to the actual opinion of Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite (see below).

    Here are two very good articles which settle the dispute for me and demonstrate that... yes... the way it is said throughout Catholic Tradition is indeed the correct way. The first article is by Frere Michel, the second more recent by James Hanisch:

    THE PRAYER FOR SOULS | The Fatima Center

    Who Are the Souls “Most in Need”? | The Fatima Center







    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #9 on: September 04, 2023, 09:10:51 AM »
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  • You can take it for what it's worth --

    I spent years at a traditional seminary. I was taught a lot about the spiritual life. For example, the dangers of "singularity".
    No, I'm not talking about the AI singularity here, where technological progress goes parabolic or exponential ("to da moon"). Not that singularity.

    Singularity in the Ascetical & Mystical Theology (spirituality) context means: being different from the others, trying to stand out. It's a form of PRIDE expressing itself. Anything good/neutral/bad you do to make yourself SINGULAR, SPECIAL, UNIQUE among your brethren -- that is singularity.

    My spiritual director used to say: "do what the others do". It's simple really. We're not talking about following the sheep down the broad path to hell. If "the others" are your brothers in religion, you are quite safe to blend in and follow the crowd! Humility, obedience. It's the safest way, it's the ONLY way to avoid the devil's many traps of pride. Remember, he has a temptation for *everyone*. You think you're holy, zealous, fervent, faithful? The devil has a "way forward" for YOU to end up in Hell as well. Rest assured.

    P.S. This cover was really bad -- considering what was inside the book. We're talking about a hardcore book of solid Catholic doctrine about the spiritual life. Basically a textbook for Trad seminarians to use in their Ascetical & Mystical Theology class. We're talking practical applied theology here, as it applies to the spiritual life of human beings! It wasn't some foo-foo feminine "spiwituawity" fluff piece. But with the purple cover and feminine cursive font, that's what the cover suggests.
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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #10 on: September 04, 2023, 11:38:58 AM »
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  • I recall this issue was covered elsewhere on Cathinfo. A translation lending to greater accuracy - in English - was put forth. I did my own Latin translation of it, and it is what I use when I recite the Rosary PRIVATELY, just on my Polish bear lonesome.

    I do not join in the Rosary before Mass on Sundays because it remains a cacophony: too many people/families/groups reciting at different speeds - without any attempt to try to keep things together, colloquially speaking. It becomes a great distraction, so I tune out (usually with wireless buds in my ears, as I do a last minute run through of hymns for the Mass). I can easily become a singularity - because of my size - BIG and TALL - dwarfing parishioners, so the choir stall is right at the back of the church, and I sit in the spot furthest to the right, being my quiet self as best as I am able.

    If I have the opportunity to pray the Rosary with others, it is done without making obvious the Nostri O Iesu part.

    I pray we would not have any hymns for our low Mass Sundays, only when we get the odd High Mass, sung. I am tired of sticking out because I can actually sing well, even the more complicated pieces that Tradition provides us. Better the anemic parishioners - the majority - warble some congregational piece so I and my soprano can fade into the background. 

    Spending time with SSPX priories and school, before the Untergang/downfall of 2012, the point of singularity was often brought up in talks and sermons, and spiritual direction. :incense::pray:
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #11 on: September 04, 2023, 05:07:24 PM »
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  • I do not join in the Rosary before Mass on Sundays because it remains a cacophony: too many people/families/groups reciting at different speeds - without any attempt to try to keep things together, colloquially speaking. It becomes a great distraction, so I tune out...
    Ha ha... sounds like it is the same the world over... how true, and how absolutely appalling. It's enough to make you blush with shame if ever you manage to drag along a Protestant friend, for example. What should be unto their edification becomes a stumbling block. Not enough pastors correct this terrible abuse in my opinion.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #12 on: September 04, 2023, 05:45:05 PM »
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  • I agree. I am very skeptical about the idea that everyone has been saying the prayer incorrectly for over a century. That strikes me as absurd and I would have to see serious proof of it. The arguments made against the one we say are pretty specious anyway. There's nothing wrong with saying "lead all souls to heaven". Doesn't God want all men to be saved? And doesn't the offering of the chalice in the Mass offer it for "our salvation and that of the whole world"?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #13 on: September 04, 2023, 05:48:26 PM »
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  • I agree. I am very skeptical about the idea that everyone has been saying the prayer incorrectly for over a century. That strikes me as absurd and I would have to see serious proof of it. The arguments made against the one we say are pretty specious anyway. There's nothing wrong with saying "lead all souls to heaven". Doesn't God want all men to be saved? And doesn't the offering of the chalice in the Mass offer it for "our salvation and that of the whole world"?
    I agree. Like I said in my post above, the only "problem" with this translation is that the Modernists/Novus Ordites will think it means going to Heaven without converting to the Catholic Faith first. 

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #14 on: September 04, 2023, 05:55:56 PM »
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  • I agree. Like I said in my post above, the only "problem" with this translation is that the Modernists/Novus Ordites will think it means going to Heaven without converting to the Catholic Faith first.
    .

    That's not a problem. If we had to worry about how heretics might twist some text to suit their agenda, we'd have to get rid of the Bible itself. :)