Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: Gray2023 on October 02, 2025, 02:41:50 PM
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Obedience is, without doubt, more meritorious than any austerity. And what greater austerity can be thought of than that of keeping one's will constantly submissive and obedient? ----St. Catherine of Bologna
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:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
And the other St. Catherine says:
“Alas, Most Holy Father! At times, obedience to you leads to eternal damnation.”
St. Catherine of Siena, Letter to Pope Gregory XI
and St. Bernard of Clairvaux says:
"It appears clearly that those who command things evil are not to be obeyed, especially when, in yielding to wrong commands, in which you appear to obey man, you show yourself disobedient to God, who has forbidden everything that is evil. For it is altogether unreasonable to profess yourself obedient when you know that you are violating obedience due to the superior on account of the inferior, that is, to the Divine on account of the human. What then! God forbids what man orders; and shall I be deaf to the voice of God and listen to that of man? The Apostles did not understand the matter thus when they said, 'We must obey God rather than men' (Acts v. 29)." Letter 7 of Some Letters of Saint Bernard, Abbot of Clairvaux.
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:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
And the other St. Catherine says:
and St. Bernard of Clairvaux says:
Just to give context.
I am posting quotes from this website
https://www.catholictradition.org/Saints/virtue6.htm
Which get the quotes from a book that was published in 1891.
Usually October's virtue is Confidence in God, but I posted those quotes in June, so I am posting the June virtue quotes of obedience now.
I just do it to share, not make any kind of statement.
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Yeah, I too "shared."
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Yeah, I too "shared."
You could have "shared" without the :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: .
No need for the drama. :cowboy:
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You could have "shared" without the :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: .
No need for the drama. :cowboy:
Just as there was no need for any response from you to my posted quotes. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: <<< just for dramatic effect
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“Alas, Most Holy Father! At times, obedience to you leads to eternal damnation.”
St. Catherine of Siena, Letter to Pope Gregory XI
There are so many people whose heads would explode if they read this quote.
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Just as there was no need for any response from you to my posted quotes. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: <<< just for dramatic effect
I see. You are allowed to be dramatic and I am not Noted.
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I see. You are allowed to be dramatic and I am not Noted.
Keep it up.
This is a forum of practicing Catholics who almost entirely believe either (1) the post-V2 "Popes" have been awful and must be resisted, not obeyed and (2) since V2 there have been only anti-Popes who are owed no obedience. Both of those categories of practicing Catholics know that calls of "obedience" were the prime weapon used against practicing Catholics to prevent a return to the Faith.
Hence…
In this forum posting a quote encouraging obedience, is like "dropping a gauntlet," a dramatic call for a duel.
Whether foolishly or intentionally, you got the duel you invited. If you put bait in the water, expect to be eaten by sharks. Deal with it.
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Keep it up.
This is a forum of practicing Catholics who almost entirely believe either (1) the post-V2 "Popes" have been awful and must be resisted, not obeyed and (2) since V2 there have been only anti-Popes who are owed no obedience. Both of those categories of practicing Catholics know that calls of "obedience" were the prime weapon used against practicing Catholics to prevent a return to the Faith.
Hence…
In this forum posting a quote encouraging obedience, is like "dropping a gauntlet," a dramatic call for a duel.
Whether foolishly or intentionally, you got the duel you invited. If you put bait in the water, expect to be eaten by sharks. Deal with it.
I understand your point. But we don't throw out all obedience because of the crisis in the church. Women still need to practice obedience to the man they married (as long as he isn't going against God). Men still need to be obedient to their bosses and their priests (again as long as it is not against God).
And if their superior is going against God, then the person will have to practice patience and acceptance for God's will for them. And if need be maybe some just anger (retaliating because they are going against God) I don't know, just some thoughts.
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Obedience is a penance of the soul, and for that reason a sacrifice more acceptable than all corporal penances. Thence it happens that God loves more the least degree of obedience in thee, than all the other services thou mayest think to render Him. ----St. John of the Cross
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To pick up a straw from the ground through obedience is more meritorious than to preach, to fast, to use the discipline to blood, and to make long prayers, of one's own will. ----St. Alphonsus Rodriguez
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Whoever has not the virtue of obedience cannot be called a Religious. Whoever, then, is under obedience by vow, and fails therein, not using every exertion to observe her vow with the utmost perfection, I cannot understand why she remains in the convent.
----St. Teresa
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Every Sister, on entering religion, should leave her own will outside the gate, in order to have no will but that of God. ----St. Francis de Sales
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So, the distinction here, as per the ever-prudent St. Francis de Sales ... is that, yes, in obedience we give up our will to do that of God. That's the correct definition and explains why sometimes we must actually reject the commands of our superiors because, if the command that we do something that we consider to be contrary to the will of God, such action would be formally opposed to the very intent behind obedience, since we'd have given up our will in order to do what God does NOT will in those cases, but rather what our superior wills. We are not giving up our will to do the will our our superior, except insofar as it reflects the will of God ... but we take it as such in all things but in those where their will contradicts the manifest will of God, as taught by the Church, the Doctors, and the saints.
Very few can go wrong by following St. Francis de Sales on nearly all practical matters, and use his "Introduction to the Devout Life" as their guide. He was rooted in common sense, in reality, and in the application of principles to reality by the exercise of prudence far more than many of the saints who lived on a different plane than most mortals and were therefore unable to relate to normal people. It's like the teacher who most certainly has great and profound knowledge of the truth, but he's unable to actually teach is since he can't relate anymore to the level they're on.
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Many Religious and others have been Saints without meditation, but without obedience no one. ----St. Francis de Sales
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Obedience is the summary of perfection and of the whole spiritual life, and the securest, shortest, least laborious and least dangerous way of becoming enriched with all virtues, and arriving at the goal of our desires----eternal life. ----Alvarez
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The devil, seeing that there is no shorter road to the summit of perfection than that of obedience, artfully insinuates many repugnances and difficulties under color of good, to prevent us from following it. ----St. Teresa
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The more we see of failure in obedience, the stronger should be our suspicion of temptation and illusion. For when God sends His inspirations to a heart, the first grace He sheds upon it is that of obedience. ----St. Teresa
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A truly obedient man does not discriminate between one thing and another, or desire one employment more than another, since his only aim is to execute faithfully whatever may be assigned to him. ----St. Bernard
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The chief merit of obedience consists not in following the will of a mild, amiable Superior who asks rather than commands, but in remaining patiently under the yoke of one who is imperious, rigorous, harsh, ill-humored, and never satisfied. This is a pure fountain of water gushing from the throat of a bronze lion. ----St. Francis de Sales
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When the Superior orders anything, consider that it is not he that speaks, but God, so that the Superior is but a trumpet through which the voice of God sounds. And this is the true key to obedience, and the reason why the perfect obey in everything so promptly, and make no difference between one Superior and another, and submit to the lowest in authority as well as to the highest, and to the imperfect as well as to the perfect; for they regard not the persons nor the qualities of Superiors, but God alone, who is always the same, of equal merit, and of equal authority. ----St. Alphonsus Rodriguez
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Do you know how it happens that many who have lived long in religion, and practiced daily so many acts of obedience, have by no means succeeded in acquiring a habit of this virtue? Because, not every time they obey, do they do it because such is the will of God [which is the formal reason of obedience]; but they obey, now for one cause, now for another, so that their actions, being destitute of mutual similarity, cannot unite to form a habit of this virtue. ----St. Alphonsus Rodriguez
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Whoever wishes to be a good Religious must make himself like the ass of the monastery. This animal does not choose what burden he is to bear, nor go by the road he prefers, nor rest when he likes, nor do what he wishes; but accommodates himself to all that is chosen for him. He walks, he stops, he turns, he goes back, he suffers and labors day and night, in all kinds of weather, and bears whatever burden is put upon him without saying, "Why?" or "What for?" "It is too much;" "It is too little;" or the like. ----Abbot Nesterone
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Whoever lives under obedience ought to allow himself to be ruled by Providence, through his Superior, like a dead man. It is a sign of death not to see, not to feel, not to answer, not to complain, not to show any preference, but to be moved and carried anywhere at the will of another. See how far your obedience falls short of this. ----St. Ignatius Loyola
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The perfection of a Religious consists in exact obedience to his Rules; and whoever is most faithful in their observance will be, by this fact alone, the most perfect. ----St. Alphonsus Rodriguez
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"Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: 'They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!' But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.” - St. Catherine of Sienna
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Pope St Pius X, 1912:
"The Pope is the guardian of dogma and morality; he is the custodian of the principles that make the family honest, the nations great, the souls holy; he is the counselor of princes and peoples; he is the leader under whom no one feels tyrannized, because he represents God himself; he is the father par excellence who brings together in himself everything that can be loving, tender, and divine.
"It seems incredible, and it is painful, that we must make this recommendation to priests, but unfortunately, in our days, we find ourselves in the harsh and unhappy condition of having to say to priests, "Love the Pope!"
"And how should the Pope be loved? Non verbo neque lingua, sed opere et veritate [not in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, and in truth]. When we love someone, we seek to conform to their thoughts, carry out their wishes, and understand their desires. And just as our Lord Jesus Christ said of Himself: si quis diligit me, sermonem meum servibit [If anyone love me, he will keep my word,] to demonstrate our love for the Pope, we must obey him.
"Therefore, when one loves the Pope, there is no room for discussions about what he ordains or demands, or how far obedience should go, or in what matters obedience is required. When one loves the Pope, one does not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, as if he were obliged to repeat in each man's ear that will which has been expressed so many times, not only verbally but also in letters and other public docuмents. One does not doubt his orders, using the easy pretext of those who do not wish to obey that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him. One does not limit the scope in which he can and should exercise his authority. One does not put the authority of other, albeit learned, individuals who dissent from the Pope ahead of the Pope's authority; individuals who, if they are learned, are not holy, because one who is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.
"This is the outpouring of a sorrowful heart, which I express with deep bitterness, not against you, beloved brethren, but together with you, to deplore the behavior of many priests, who not only allow themselves to discuss and scrutinize the Pope's wishes, but are not ashamed to arrive at impudent and brazen disobedience, causing great scandal to the righteous and much harm to souls."
https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-x/it/speeches/docuмents/hf_p-x_spe_19121118_unione-apostolica.html
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"To be subject to the Roman Pontiff, is absolutely necessary for slavation."
- St. Thomas Aquinas
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"He who always acts under obedience may be assured that he will not have to give an account of his actions to God.”
--Saint Philip Neri
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“Alas, Most Holy Father! At times, obedience to you leads to eternal damnation.”
St. Catherine of Siena, Letter to Pope Gregory XI
There are so many people whose heads would explode if they read this quote.
Is St. Catherine speaking of the eternal damnation of the pope or of the eternal damnation of those who obey him?
Matthew 18:6
"But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea."
While this is describing what happens to those who lead children astray, this easily applies to leaders as well.
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Really good article on this topic, with many quotes from saints:
"Thoughts on Spiritual Direction"
by
Fr. Carlo Giuseppe Quadrupani, Barnabite (1740-1807)
https://tandirection.com/pursuit-of-perfection/thoughts-on-spiritual-direction/