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Author Topic: cant reach a conclusion  (Read 1104 times)

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Offline spouse of Jesus

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cant reach a conclusion
« on: August 14, 2010, 06:16:42 PM »
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  •   I have asked it before on FE, and if I have asked it here too, please forgive me. But I can't reach a conclusion:
      For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary. (De fide.)
    Actual Grace is not necessary for the performance of a morally good action. (Sent. certa.)
    And what CM pointed out recently:
    "Pope Pius St. V, Ex Omnibus 27: “Free will, without the help of God's grace, has power only for sin.” - CONDEMNED.

    The only conclusion I reached is that we can do good without grace, but it will have no effect on our salvation. Also maybe we can avoid some sins (not ofcoarse all sins and not for a considerable amount of time) but still without any effect on our salvation.

    Is it right?


    Offline Jamie

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    cant reach a conclusion
    « Reply #1 on: August 14, 2010, 11:13:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: spouse of Jesus
     I have asked it before on FE, and if I have asked it here too, please forgive me. But I can't reach a conclusion:
      For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary. (De fide.)
    Actual Grace is not necessary for the performance of a morally good action. (Sent. certa.)
    And what CM pointed out recently:
    "Pope Pius St. V, Ex Omnibus 27: “Free will, without the help of God's grace, has power only for sin.” - CONDEMNED.

    The only conclusion I reached is that we can do good without grace, but it will have no effect on our salvation. Also maybe we can avoid some sins (not ofcoarse all sins and not for a considerable amount of time) but still without any effect on our salvation.

    Is it right?


    Could the difference be between internal and external grace?  This site seems to have a good explanation of how the two work:

    http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Grace/Grace_004.htm


    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    cant reach a conclusion
    « Reply #2 on: August 15, 2010, 04:46:59 AM »
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  •  Thanks for the link.
      I am afraid of having a heretical opinion. It is why I ask so many questions, to make sure that there is no error in my mind.
     

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    cant reach a conclusion
    « Reply #3 on: August 15, 2010, 01:37:31 PM »
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  • Have you ever read, or thought of reading, St. Thomas on the subject of grace?  I only ask because you can access the Summa Theologiae online, perusing this work of a true master at your leisure.

    Well, Godspeed to you, spouse :)
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline CM

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    cant reach a conclusion
    « Reply #4 on: August 15, 2010, 02:33:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: spouse of Jesus
    The only conclusion I reached is that we can do good without grace, but it will have no effect on our salvation. Also maybe we can avoid some sins (not ofcoarse all sins and not for a considerable amount of time) but still without any effect on our salvation.

    Is it right?


    Sounds like you've got it.  Calvinists, of course, will disagree.


    Offline Jamie

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    cant reach a conclusion
    « Reply #5 on: August 15, 2010, 03:05:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: spouse of Jesus
    Thanks for the link.
      I am afraid of having a heretical opinion. It is why I ask so many questions, to make sure that there is no error in my mind.
     


    Just for the record, according to Aristotle/Aquinas, our minds are naturally ordered to accept the truth when we hear it - so as long as you are not intentionally rejecting what is obviously true, you are unlikely to fall into a heretical opinion and certainly not willfully - so don't worry :)

    Offline MyrnaM

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    cant reach a conclusion
    « Reply #6 on: August 15, 2010, 03:13:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jamie
    Quote from: spouse of Jesus
    Thanks for the link.
      I am afraid of having a heretical opinion. It is why I ask so many questions, to make sure that there is no error in my mind.
     


    Just for the record, according to Aristotle/Aquinas, our minds are naturally ordered to accept the truth when we hear it - so as long as you are not intentionally rejecting what is obviously true, you are unlikely to fall into a heretical opinion and certainly not willfully - so don't worry :)


    That is so interesting, never knew that!  I had one nun, who would always say, pray for the grace to know the truth when you hear it, and pray  harder to act on the knowledge.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

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    Offline Clovis

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    cant reach a conclusion
    « Reply #7 on: August 15, 2010, 03:15:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jamie


    Could the difference be between internal and external grace?  This site seems to have a good explanation of how the two work:

    http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Grace/Grace_004.htm


    Thank you for posting that Jamie!


    Offline Jamie

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    cant reach a conclusion
    « Reply #8 on: August 15, 2010, 03:49:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote from: Jamie
    Quote from: spouse of Jesus
    Thanks for the link.
      I am afraid of having a heretical opinion. It is why I ask so many questions, to make sure that there is no error in my mind.
     


    Just for the record, according to Aristotle/Aquinas, our minds are naturally ordered to accept the truth when we hear it - so as long as you are not intentionally rejecting what is obviously true, you are unlikely to fall into a heretical opinion and certainly not willfully - so don't worry :)


    That is so interesting, never knew that!  I had one nun, who would always say, pray for the grace to know the truth when you hear it, and pray  harder to act on the knowledge.  


    That is definitely a good prayer - because the grace of God can help us to remain strong against the temptation to lie or willfully disregard the truth.  This is why all sins are bad - because when you hear truth your intellect immediately adheres to it, and when you lie, you are going against your nature by speaking the opposite of what your intellect tells you is true.

    The prayer is also good in that we can intentionally avoid the truth by not seeking the answer to certain questions because we are not sure we will like the answer.  I don't think this is sinful but it is certainly not prudent.