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Author Topic: Byzantine Rite and Eucharistic Adoration  (Read 3623 times)

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Offline s2srea

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Byzantine Rite and Eucharistic Adoration
« on: July 12, 2012, 07:36:48 PM »
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  • Sigi- I called a Byzantine Church, which is very close to my work, the other day and spoke with the priest there. I asked him if he did Eucharistic adoration. He told me that they don't anymore ever since Vatican II. That ever since then, the Roman influence upon the Byzantine Rite was removed, and that since Eucharistic adoration was a Roman Practice, they do not "expose the blessed Sacrament".

    I asked him, " I though that the Byzantine Rite was largely untouched by Vatican II, at least when compared to the other Rites."

    "No, it was very much influenced by it." The priest said.

    "Well, that too bad isn't it." I said.

    Silence. Then the end of the call.


    Offline Sigismund

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    Byzantine Rite and Eucharistic Adoration
    « Reply #1 on: July 12, 2012, 10:09:18 PM »
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  • Eucharistic adoration is not a Byzantine practice.  Where it existed in the Byzantine Church it was due to Roman influence.  I am a big fan of Eucharistic Adoration, and I participate in it whenever I can, but I was born in the Latin rite.  

    I am not sure what the priest meant, exactly.  The Byzantine Liturgy itself has not changed significantly since VC II.  What has changed, in some cases, latinized way it is celebrated.  This has involved reviving the use of  authentic Byzantine icons, music, and architecture.

    For example, I went to a Byzantine Divine Liturgy in Pittsburgh in the 80's.  There was no Iconostasis.  There were holy water fonts at the doors and stations of the cross on the walls.  There were six Latin Candlesticks on the altar, and a Latin style Tabernacle in the center.  There were no liturgical fans, the servers wore Latin style cassocks and surplices, and worst of all, the Liturgy was recited with no incense.  They even describe it as a Low Mass on the sign out front.

    All of these things belong in a Latin rite church.  None of them belong in a Byzantine church.  This is not because there is anything wrong with them, but because they are not Byzantine traditions.  I really didn't object  to the stations, but the removal of the Iconostasis and the lack of chant and incense (there is no such thing as a Low Mass in the Byzantine rite) is a fundamental betrayal of the integrity of the Byzantine liturgy.   This was largely due to the nefarious influence of one Nicholas Elko, the Eparch of Pittsburgh in the Ruthenian rite many years ago.  He did his level best to destroy the Byzantine Liturgy and the Byzantine appearance of every church in his eparchy. He wanted them to "look Catholic" which meant looking Roman. His priests eventually rose up in rebellion and he was removed and sent packing to the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, where he became what I am told is the only auxiliary archbishop in the history of the Catholic Church.  

    Sorry, I got off on a tangent here.  This makes my blood boil a bit, however.  Anyway, I hope this is what the priest meant.  I have not seen much evidence that Eastern Catholics have become anything like as liberal as NO Catholics.  As I mentioned on another thread, I am fortunate enough to be able to attend a Byzantine or Maronite Rite Matins, Divine Liturgy, or Vespers every day now if I am able to drive, at most, 45 minutes.  I have never heard a heretical sermon in a Byzantine church.  I hear contraception regularly called a sin, and I have never heard it praised or excused.  I used to hear that often in NO churches.  

    I am not sure if this helps.  I will try to offer more information if needed.

    Incidentally, my son once chatted with a priest colleague of his who was one of only two Byzantine priests to attend Archbishop Elko's very NO Latin rite Funeral.  This priest was famous among Ruthenians for opposing Elko's reign of terror, and celebrating the Liturgy as correctly as possible.  He told my son, "Really ,I just wanted to be sure he was dead."
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline Roland Deschain

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    Byzantine Rite and Eucharistic Adoration
    « Reply #2 on: July 13, 2012, 05:10:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Sigi- I called a Byzantine Church, which is very close to my work, the other day and spoke with the priest there. I asked him if he did Eucharistic adoration. He told me that they don't anymore ever since Vatican II. That ever since then, the Roman influence upon the Byzantine Rite was removed, and that since Eucharistic adoration was a Roman Practice, they do not "expose the blessed Sacrament".

    I asked him, " I though that the Byzantine Rite was largely untouched by Vatican II, at least when compared to the other Rites."

    "No, it was very much influenced by it." The priest said.

    "Well, that too bad isn't it." I said.

    Silence. Then the end of the call.


    Sig's reply is very good.If I may try to draw an analogy: Imagine how you would feel if your local traditional chapel starting replacing pre-Mass rosary with an Akathist, or if the Confessional was removed an replaced by Confession out in the open in the front of the church, or maybe the statues were all removed and replaced with Greek style ikons.

    The Byzantine Rite stretches back to the earliest centuries of Christendom and is of equal dignity with the Latin Rite. Unfortunately we can sometimes view Byzantine traditions as too "Orthodox" due to the schism. Both Rites belong to the entire Church and are the heritage of the entire Church. I have personally been enriched by certain Eastern devotions such as the "Jesus prayer" and the use of Icons at home.

    Offline InstaurareEcclesiam

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    « Reply #3 on: July 13, 2012, 07:31:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Eucharistic adoration is not a Byzantine practice.  Where it existed in the Byzantine Church it was due to Roman influence.  I am a big fan of Eucharistic Adoration, and I participate in it whenever I can, but I was born in the Latin rite.  


    This is not true. The adoration of the Most Blessed Sacrament is also destined for Byzantine and other Eastern Rite Catholics, fitting within their own proper Rite.

    Before St. Juliana of Liège, the Roman Rite or Western Latin Church also hardly knew Eucharistic exposition.

    Of the Byzantine Catholic Churches should decide themselves how to do the adoration, and create laws and liturgical regulation for it.

    Quote
    I am not sure what the priest meant, exactly.  The Byzantine Liturgy itself has not changed significantly since VC II.  What has changed, in some cases, latinized way it is celebrated.  This has involved reviving the use of  authentic Byzantine icons, music, and architecture.


    No, the Ruthenian and Ukrainian Greek Catholics were often forced, after Vatican II, to discard their beloved pious customs (such as the Stations of the Cross) to implement the Russian Orthodox (schismatic) Patriarchate's liturgical post-1667 styles, which were fairly young in fact (although looking old).

    Also, in Western countries and Ukraine, Church Slavonic was removed to introduce the vernacular language, producing problems like that with the Novus Ordo (although not as bad, not involving validity and orthodoxy mostly fortunately).

    Quote

    For example, I went to a Byzantine Divine Liturgy in Pittsburgh in the 80's.  There was no Iconostasis.  There were holy water fonts at the doors and stations of the cross on the walls.  There were six Latin Candlesticks on the altar, and a Latin style Tabernacle in the center.  There were no liturgical fans, the servers wore Latin style cassocks and surplices, and worst of all, the Liturgy was recited with no incense.  They even describe it as a Low Mass on the sign out front.


    This was the product of the Latinization of the Eastern Catholics in the United States by Irish and German American (Latin Rite) archbishops responsible for them.

    Of course some Eastern Catholics in the USA (and in Poland, equally heavy Latinization and even Polonization attempts) came to cherish these Latin Rite customs as their own (in a particular peculiar mix).

    I do agree that Low Mass, lack of Divine Liturgy fans and incense are not very Byzantine Rite.

    Quote
    All of these things belong in a Latin rite church.  None of them belong in a Byzantine church.  This is not because there is anything wrong with them, but because they are not Byzantine traditions.  I really didn't object  to the stations


    The stations of the Cross and Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament are pious practices for the universal Church, including the Byzantine Rite Catholics. There is no need to freeze things in an anti-Latin way in order to totally accomodate and adapt to the Byzantine schismatics (Eastern Orthodox).

     
    Quote
    but the removal of the Iconostasis and the lack of chant and incense (there is no such thing as a Low Mass in the Byzantine rite) is a fundamental betrayal of the integrity of the Byzantine liturgy.


    The iconostasis was never 'removed' from that church in Pittsburgh. It probably never was in it anytime.

    Quote
    This was largely due to the nefarious influence of one Nicholas Elko, the Eparch of Pittsburgh in the Ruthenian rite many years ago.  He did his level best to destroy the Byzantine Liturgy and the Byzantine appearance of every church in his eparchy. He wanted them to "look Catholic" which meant looking Roman.


    Eparch Nicholas Elko resisted Vatican II's and post-conciliar instructions to adapt to the Eastern Orthodox schismatics and to discard a centuries old cherished 'Latinized' pastoral approach.

    Elko was more of a conservative therefore. Not 'nefarious' per se, although I do not promote Latinization myself. But I think keeping customs and stations and Adoration is good. It is therefore that the Priestly Society of Saint Josaphat in Ukraine was founded by the SSPX in 1997, to resist (alongside false ecuмenism and modernism) adaptation into a (vernacularized!!!) Moscow-like liturgy.

    Quote
    His priests eventually rose up in rebellion and he was removed and sent packing to the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, where he became what I am told is the only auxiliary archbishop in the history of the Catholic Church.  

    Sorry, I got off on a tangent here.  This makes my blood boil a bit, however.  Anyway, I hope this is what the priest meant.  I have not seen much evidence that Eastern Catholics have become anything like as liberal as NO Catholics.  As I mentioned on another thread, I am fortunate enough to be able to attend a Byzantine or Maronite Rite Matins, Divine Liturgy, or Vespers every day now if I am able to drive, at most, 45 minutes.  I have never heard a heretical sermon in a Byzantine church.  I hear contraception regularly called a sin, and I have never heard it praised or excused.  I used to hear that often in NO churches.


    Eastern Catholic Churches and diocese after Vatican II suffered from such pro-Orthodox ecuмenicist rebellion of priests against conservative 'Latinized' Eastern Rite elderly bishops like abp. Elko who was just moved around.

    The Maronite Rite is especially Novus Ordoized, complete with table instead of altar!

    Of course socially and morally, Eastern Rite Catholics tend to be more conservative, but then again the "Latin Rite" Novus Ordo church today is really extremely apostate and liberal.
     
    The liturgical 'restorational' changes in the Byzantine Rite Catholic churches however accompany a particularly relativist ecuмenist approach of Eastern Orthodox schismatics by these same 'de-Latinizers'.

    The Latinization was initially probably illegitimate, but also developed with consent or at request of the pious Eastern Rite Catholic laity, who also developed admiration for the Stations of the Cross 'Latin' custom and e.g. the Rosary.

    When will the Byzantinists also deem the Rosary of Our Lady a 'Latin practice'? Stop praying the Rosary then? I hope NOT!
     
    Quote


    Incidentally, my son once chatted with a priest colleague of his who was one of only two Byzantine priests to attend Archbishop Elko's very NO Latin rite Funeral.  This priest was famous among Ruthenians for opposing Elko's reign of terror, and celebrating the Liturgy as correctly as possible.  He told my son, "Really ,I just wanted to be sure he was dead."


    Sad to read that Elko was buried in the Novus Ordo 'Latin' rite. Reign of terror seems exaggerated? Or was Elko a doctrinal modernist and ecuмenist and neo-Protestant? I think hardly, if you kept six altar candles and the Byzantine liturgical texts. I think this anecdote of yours lacks charity towards the deceased abp. Elko.

    Offline InstaurareEcclesiam

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    « Reply #4 on: July 13, 2012, 07:35:16 AM »
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  • On the topic of Exarch Elko:

    He was appointed to the Novus Ordo archdiocese of Cincinnatti and to Byzantine Rite Catholics in Rome in 1964 to 1984.

    Probably not a 'traditionalist' or Lefebvrist indeed.


    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #5 on: July 13, 2012, 02:04:13 PM »
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  • Thanks Sigismund. I knew you would give a great answer, and you didn't disappoint. I was trying to get a read on the priest I spoke with, and couldn't tell from our short conversation how liberal he might be. I remember calling him once asking about the hours of confession, as Hobbledehoy validity wouldn't be too much of an issue in the Byzantine Rite.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #6 on: July 13, 2012, 10:15:38 PM »
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  • IE,

    I don't have the energy to reply to your post as it deserves.  It had been a very trying day, and I am exhausted and going to bed soon.

    I spoke imprecisely about adoration.  Of course  we adore the Blessed Sacrament.   I should have said that Exposition and Benediction, as they are practiced in the West, are not Byzantine practices.  Note that I am absolutely not saying that there is anything wrong with them.  I participate both in Latin rite churches whenever I can.  

    I don't object to stations in Byzantine Churches, particularly.  

    It is not caving into Eastern Orthodoxy to become more authentically Eastern.  It is just becoming more Eastern.  Sometimes there are things we can learn form the Orthodox, sometimes not.

    The Ukrainian Rite is a separate liturgical case.  Many of the Latinizations there, such as they are, are of very long standing and have become a a great part of their spirituality.  A prime example of this is their particular iconography.  I have to say it looks vapid and faux to me.  I really don't like it.  This is just an opinion, however.  It is appropriately dear to the Ukrainians.  Also, I once visited a Bulgarian Orthodox Church (not for the Liturgy) and was surprised to see that all the icons reflected this style.  

    I was told that there was an iconostasis in that particular church, and that Archbishop Elko ordered all of them removed from all the churches in his eparchy.   I have also heard that no such order was issued, and that the pressure to do such things was more subtle but no less effective.  I am not sure where the truth lies.

    You are right about the Maronites.  I have been to far few Maronite Liturgies than Byzantine ones.  I have seen priests celebrating facing East and priests celebrating facing the people in about equal numbers in the Maronite churches I have visited.  I do not despise the NO as many do here, but this is not an Eastern practice and the Maronites should have left it alone, in my opinion.

    I suspect we will never agree on Archbishop Elko.  I thing nefarious fits very nicely, along with a long list of less presentable adjectives.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #7 on: July 13, 2012, 10:27:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Thanks Sigismund. I knew you would give a great answer, and you didn't disappoint. I was trying to get a read on the priest I spoke with, and couldn't tell from our short conversation how liberal he might be. I remember calling him once asking about the hours of confession, as Hobbledehoy validity wouldn't be too much of an issue in the Byzantine Rite.


    I have found that Byzantine churches are a bit less likely than Latin ones to have set times for confession.  However, I have found Byzantine priests to be very approachable for confession upon request.  Not that I have found approachability to be a problem among Latin rite clergy.

    I have always avoided going to confession to my son, mostly because he told me when he was ordained that he found the prospect of hearing confessions from either of his parents disconcerting.  He gave his mother the last Sacraments, and I assume confession was part of that, although of course I was not in the room.  Other than that, I don't think either of use ever confessed to him.  This is now a bit of a practical problem because I am a member of his parish.  I have practiced weekly confession for most of my life.  Before I moved here, I had a regular Latin rite confessor.  He is now too far away to see weekly.  Fortunately I have found no shortage of good confessors of both rites where I live now.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #8 on: July 13, 2012, 10:32:51 PM »
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  • IE,

    Are you a Byzantine rite Catholic?  You are very knowledgeable if not.  Actually, you are very knowledgeable about it if your are.  :applause:   :smile:
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #9 on: July 13, 2012, 11:59:41 PM »
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  • The renowned liturgical scholar, Archdale A. King, in his monumental work The Rites of Eastern Christendom (Vol. II; Rome: Catholic Book Agency, 1948), Chapter VII "Byzantine Rite with Variants," treats upon the practice of Benediction of the Most Blessed Sacrament amongst the Melkites:





    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #10 on: July 14, 2012, 12:04:44 AM »
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  • In the famous prayerbook authored by the Most. Rev. Joseph Raya―Archbishop of Aka, Haifa, Nazareth and all Galilee―together with Baron José de Vinck, Byzantine Daily Worship: With Byzantine Breviary, the Three Liturgies, Propers of the Day and Various Offices (Allendale, NJ: Alleluia Press, 1969), here is the ceremonial for Benediction of the Most Blessed Sacrament amongst the Byzantines:







    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.


    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #11 on: July 14, 2012, 12:10:20 AM »
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  • In the Byzantine Missal for Sundays and Feast Days with Rites of Sacraments, and Various Offices and Prayers (Birmingham, AL: St. George's R. C. Byzantine Church, 1958), authored by (then) Rev. Fr. Joseph Raya and Baron José de Vinck, here is an earlier text of the ceremonial for Benediction of the Most Blessed Sacrament amongst the Byzantines:











    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #12 on: July 14, 2012, 05:03:01 PM »
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  • Very interesting.  This is all stuff I did not know.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir