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Author Topic: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations  (Read 3595 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2021, 09:39:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Todd The Trad on November 26, 2021, 08:19:50 PM
    I checked out the link you provided. Is that the full autobiography? I looked at it briefly and it had 4 parts. The 4th part looked like it ended when he was told about the supposed Marian apparitions and was going to go with those who came to his door. I didn't see anything further.

    That's the most I could find translate into English.  Perhaps someone knows where to find the rest of it.  It's also possible that he passed away before he could finish, but this does leave off with the cliffhanger of his going to Palmar.  Just notice his remarkable recall of detail, names, dates, places, little seemingly-insignificant happenings ... that is not the mind of a man incapable of validly confecting an episcopal consecration.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #31 on: November 26, 2021, 09:49:32 PM »
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    • Here's some more testimony about Archbishop Thuc when he lived in Rochester, NY after the consecrations...  Bishop Webster also was there at that time, and he gives a very similar testimony.
    http://www.fathercekada.com/2014/03/08/abp-thuc-recollections-by-one-who-knew-him/

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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #32 on: November 26, 2021, 09:54:24 PM »
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    • Archbishop Thuc again at the Franciscan seminary (he looks pretty good for being close to his mid-80s).
    http://www.fathercekada.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Thuc-Roch-Friars.jpg
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #33 on: November 26, 2021, 10:03:42 PM »
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    • Here's the testimony of Father Noel Barbara, who also personally knew Archbishop Lefebvre:
    https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/episcopal-consecrations-conferred-by-archbishop-ngo-dinh-thuc/

    Here Archbishop Thuc denied consecrating a few of the people who claimed to have been consecrated by him.  He did aver that he had consecrated +des Lauriers and Carmona/Zamora.  He spoke to the latter in Latin and recalled that +Carmona had a better grasp of Latin than +Zamora.

    I also would not doubt that some claimed to have been consecrated by +Thuc even though that never happened.

    According to Father Barbara, the only ones that he knew to have bee consecrated by +Thuc after Palmar were +des Lauriers, +Carmona and +Zamora.
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    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #34 on: November 26, 2021, 10:17:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 26, 2021, 09:39:02 PM
    That's the most I could find translate into English.  Perhaps someone knows where to find the rest of it.  It's also possible that he passed away before he could finish, but this does leave off with the cliffhanger of his going to Palmar.  Just notice his remarkable recall of detail, names, dates, places, little seemingly-insignificant happenings ... that is not the mind of a man incapable of validly confecting an episcopal consecration.
    I agree. I have an 85-year-old grandfather who has some memory problems due to old age and he couldn't write 2 coherent pages about anything, let alone an autobiography. If he were a bishop, I bet he'd still have the ability to validly confect an episcopal consecration. It seems logically impossible to me that someone could literally write an autobiography like this but not have the presence of mind to confect a sacrament.  
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #35 on: November 27, 2021, 07:10:37 AM »
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    • https://holyrosarychapel.vpweb.com/ARCHBISHOP-THUC

    Here is another site with sources regarding Archbishop Thuc's papal mandate.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Online Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #36 on: November 27, 2021, 07:19:20 AM »
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    • I’ve personally talked to people who knew him and went to his daily mass. They said that he celebrated mass perfectly and never seemed to act strangely in any way. 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #37 on: November 27, 2021, 07:21:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Todd The Trad on November 25, 2021, 10:16:45 PM
    Well, we at least know that Bp. Williamson believes that the Thuc consecrations are probably valid. (At least the line Bp. Dolan comes from). I agree with him, but I just hate that there's always a wee bit of doubt in the back of my mind because this is such a hotly debated issue. This crisis really sucks, doesn't it? 
    Negative doubt.  Ignore it.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #38 on: November 27, 2021, 10:14:31 AM »
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    • In hindsight, can’t help but think because of the SSPX’s politics against their remnant Catholic brethren, that their initial mission was that of controlled opposition.

    Instead of trying to unify the TLM movement, they pre-judged and attacked the pioneers, like Father Wathen and +ABThuc.

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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #39 on: November 27, 2021, 10:26:35 AM »
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    • I'm sure there are many 70–75-year-old bishops who have at least a little mental decline, but nowhere near the degree of invalidating episcopal consecrations. If that were the case the vatican would have lowered the retirement age a long time ago. I would guess that most people's memory, reaction time, etc declines at least a little bit when they reach that age, right? How many elderly Popes have consecrated bishops when their mental faculties weren't what they once were? If Thuc was able to perform a complicated ceremony and knew he was an archbishop, consecrating a priest a bishop like the Church does, he would be aware enough to validly confer orders, right? Does anyone know what canon law says about this? 
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    Offline Clarinha

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    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #40 on: November 27, 2021, 04:32:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Todd The Trad on November 26, 2021, 01:35:33 PM
    Yes I asked him if he would mind if I shared his letter on an online forum and he said he didn't mind. Why the hell would I be trying to cause problems?? This is an issue that effects many people so I thought it would be of interest. People like you being nosey and making stupid responses like this as if your so proper and I'm some dumbass with no sense are the ones trying to cause problems. Kindly ask me these things before accusing me of bad manners and "trying to cause problems."
     I wouldn’t get upset about it. That faction has an agenda with sweeping statements of Thuc bishops being invalid. They will refuse to address +des Lauriers as a bishop while accepting some of the most doubtful Novus Ordo consecrations in the history of the crisis. I can think of a few otherwise good priests in that camp that do that. It seems to be a dishonest agenda to monopolize the priesthood for their movement. That’s why they accuse insultingly. My advice is to take it with a grain of salt. It won’t be the last time. 
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    Offline Prayerful

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    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #41 on: November 27, 2021, 06:53:38 PM »
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    • Not quite knowing if Paul VI was Pope, and an uncertainly on the Novus Ordo (he concelebrated one with a bishop sheltering him) cannot really count against the Thuc line. It was early days then. A new Pope could have reset things. I think no proof has been provided that +Thuc who had seen his great brother, the only hope South Vietnam, and the war effort itself, had, murdered, and lost his country, was mentally unwell; strained no doubt, but of sufficient mind to consecrate. Mistakes were made, what with Clemente Domínguez y Goméz and his Palmarians (all Conclavists have been exercises in pure madness), but it would seem like a desperate effort to keep the Church alive. Bp Williamson has offered balanced and pastoral words on this. Prayers for all involved. 

     
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