Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations  (Read 4863 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cebu

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 137
  • Reputation: +234/-54
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2021, 11:59:38 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!1
  • Todd,

    Do you have the permission of Bishop Williamson to put in the public domain what appears to be a private letter he sent you? If not, it is bad manners to do such a thing.... Are you trying to cause problems? 

    Offline Clarinha

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 34
    • Reputation: +34/-26
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #16 on: November 26, 2021, 12:16:53 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The Archbishop Thuc case is very interesting the more you dig into it. My perspective on it has changed drastically over the last few decades. I now consider it an extremely reliable episcopal lineage (Carmona/Zamora, des Lauriers).

    The classic SSPX priests would spread the unfounded rumour that +Thuc was possibly crazy and that his lineage could be considered doubtful. This is proven to be false.

    As Ladislaus has pointed out on another thread, +Thuc had written an autobiography entitled "Misericordias Domini in Aeternum Cantabo" some years after the '81 consecrations (of which Bishop Dolan receives his lineage). The autobiography has been translated to English and is available online. This coupled with his language abilities (episcopal consecration certificates hand-written in perfect Latin) demonstrate that +Thuc had a mental lucidity that many today actually lack.

    There are many other factors that led me to accept the +Thuc consecrations as being undoubtedly valid.

    The arguments against the +Thuc consecrations are based on a flimsy notion that he flip-flopped on his position and consecrated unworthy candidates prior to the '81 consecrations. It's a known fact that the saintly Archbishop Lefebvre also flipped on his position with regards to the Roman authorities. The past actions, including the bad choices of episcopal candidates do not affect the validity of the sacrament. Not only this, but the deeper you dig, the more you may uncover about the truth of the mistake at Palmar de Troya and certain personalities at Econe's indirect involvement.

    Another poster on this thread stated something of relying on Eastern rite bishops. I would like to point out that some Eastern rite bishops were consecrated by dubious Novus Ordo "Latin rite" bishops. One would need to investigate each individual bishop to affirm their validity based on their episcopal lineage. So you cannot simply state that all Eastern rite bishops are valid now that they have been contaminated with Novus Ordo lineages. In most cases, co-consecrators would render them valid, but not all had certainly valid co-consecrators.

    Lastly, if a sacrament occurs within a Catholic rite, it is to b e presumed valid. In Tridentine masses, no one hears the words of consec ration which are required for validity. We are to presume that the Mass is valid. The episcopal rite and rituale is designed to ensure validity, and the validity is to be presumed. Intentions regarding the sacraments which render it valid are really a bare minimum. This is why the Church has accepted baptisms even preformed by jews to be valid. They must only do what the Church intends to be valid to meet the requirements of intentions. Supposing that +Thuc were not mentally competent at the time of the consecrations, he would only have to be aware that he was performing a consecration. It would be impossible to perform a consecration using the proper rite while not knowing what you are doing.

    Finally, to relieve any existing negative doubt of the matter, I would direct the OP to the video lecture given by Mario Derksen. At 1 hour and 30 minutes in, he goes over the objections raised by the SSPV and how they are not valid arguments.

    https://youtu.be/iLJIqLd5Gh8?t=5351



    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46797
    • Reputation: +27652/-5130
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #17 on: November 26, 2021, 12:31:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is the main gist of my post as well.  Positive vs negative.   

    You're right.  I didn't see your post yet before I made mine.  It was the same thing in that Father Scott letter.  There are no "serious" doubts, but there are doubts.  All that matters in Catholic theology is positive vs. negative doubt.  But both Bishop Williamson and Father Scott refused to use those terms, perpetuating the FUD mentality about the +Thuc line.

    With Bishop Williamson, the tone was more, "I personality don't about the validity ... but some people do."  At least there I think he's giving his opinion but prescending from thinking his opinion can bind consciences, which it can't.  So I have less of an issue with that (basically agreeing with what I read here between the lines) than with what Father Scott wrote.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46797
    • Reputation: +27652/-5130
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #18 on: November 26, 2021, 12:38:33 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Right on Lads!

    We’re in the global 2021 version of the Cristeros war.

    It’s spiritual hand-to-hand combat now.

    When thinking of Archbishop Thuc, look at the fruits. 

    His family and country were targeted by communist revolutionaries.

    He fought back, taking on the homo Jєω Pope, Paul VI.  He didn’t retire to an easy life.

    People should read Archbishop Thuc's autobiography.  It's incredibly moving.  He suffered much in his life.  After his relatives were brutally αssαssιnαtҽd (I think that one was buried alive) by the Communists, he then went against the Conciliar establishment and ended up living in a ratty apartment just helping out hearing confessions to be able to make some kind of living for himself.  He was well known to and trusted by Archbishop Lefebvre.  In fact, one of his earliest mistakes, the Palmar consecrations, was under the influence of Archbishop Lefebvre.  Originally the SSPX seminary professor who eventually took +Thuc to Palmar asked Archbishop Lefebvre to come, but the Archbishop was busy and told him to go see +Thuc.  Archbishop Thuc responded that if Our Lady wanted him to go, he would go.  So out of a misguided devotion to Our Lady, +Thuc was led to Palmar.  And in most of his other mistakes, he believed that he was doing the will of God.  All those who continue to slander Bishpop Thuc need to read his autobiography.  I found it incredibly moving, and it was in no way the product of a mind which was incapable of performing a valid consecration.

    It was also Bishop Webster, with whom I was friends (the one who infamously attempted the consecration of Father Pfeiffer), who told me that he had served Mass for +Thuc and found him to be extremely devout in offering Mass, and that he was quite lucid.  He reported that when +Thuc was at dinner with priests from various countries, he would switch between languages and not skip a beat keeping track of each conversation.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46797
    • Reputation: +27652/-5130
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #19 on: November 26, 2021, 12:44:15 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Archbishop Thuc's biography:
    http://www.einsicht-aktuell.de/index.php?svar=2&ausgabe_id=180&artikel_id=1920

    Those who continue to slander the Archbishop should read this before continuing.  In addition to his piety, you'll see that he recalls a great many deatails about dates and names (even the name of a couple cooks he had in Vietname, etc.).  His mind is clearly still quite sharp.


    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9329
    • Reputation: +9129/-872
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #20 on: November 26, 2021, 01:18:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What you write above isn't accurate. He didn't say that people could attend the NO. He was saying that one particular woman could do so. There's a difference.
     
    :confused:  
    If +W told the emotional woman she could benefit from Bugnini's concocted Novus ordo missae, it meant any trad could too.

    +W was clearly wrong to do so.  

    Did he ever apologize?
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6790
    • Reputation: +3467/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #21 on: November 26, 2021, 01:22:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1

  • :confused: 
    If +W told the emotional woman she could benefit from Bugnini's concocted Novus ordo missae, it meant any trad could too.

    +W was clearly wrong to do so. 

    Did he ever apologize?


    Why should he apologize? He never said that trads can go to the NO. 

    +W isn't going to ever be acceptable to all trads. That's just not who he is. I disagree with him an several things. He is not obligated to agree with me (or you) on everything having to do with the Crisis in in the Church. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9329
    • Reputation: +9129/-872
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #22 on: November 26, 2021, 01:23:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Archbishop Thuc's biography:
    http://www.einsicht-aktuell.de/index.php?svar=2&ausgabe_id=180&artikel_id=1920

    Those who continue to slander the Archbishop should read this before continuing.  In addition to his piety, you'll see that he recalls a great many deatails about dates and names (even the name of a couple cooks he had in Vietname, etc.).  His mind is clearly still quite sharp.

    Bravo!!!
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9329
    • Reputation: +9129/-872
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #23 on: November 26, 2021, 01:29:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Why should he apologize? He never said that trads can go to the NO.

    +W isn't going to ever be acceptable to all trads. That's just not who he is. I disagree with him an several things. He is not obligated to agree with me (or you) on everything having to do with the Crisis in in the Church.

    In +W's earlier years, he was the most articulate spokesmen for advising Catholics to avoid the Novus ordo missae.
    I recall him stating that the new-mass liturgy had removed any reference to Our Lady.

    How then could he advise a crying woman to keep attending it?  Was the comment just intended to dry her tears?

    Bp. Williamson should be capable of apologizing when he is wrong.  If not, he's got a clear problem with pride.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Todd The Trad

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 594
    • Reputation: +192/-8
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #24 on: November 26, 2021, 01:35:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Todd,

    Do you have the permission of Bishop Williamson to put in the public domain what appears to be a private letter he sent you? If not, it is bad manners to do such a thing.... Are you trying to cause problems?
    Yes I asked him if he would mind if I shared his letter on an online forum and he said he didn't mind. Why the hell would I be trying to cause problems?? This is an issue that effects many people so I thought it would be of interest. People like you being nosey and making stupid responses like this as if your so proper and I'm some dumbass with no sense are the ones trying to cause problems. Kindly ask me these things before accusing me of bad manners and "trying to cause problems."
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!

    Offline MrShort94

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 21
    • Reputation: +6/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #25 on: November 26, 2021, 02:40:27 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • I would consider the following living Thuc-Line Bishops to be valid, those who are not on this list, I would consider to be doubtful, until video footage, pictures, certificates, etc. of their ordinations and consecrations were to surface.

    Bp. Franco Munari, IMBC (1987)
    Bp. Geert Stuyver, IMBC (2002)
    Bp. Donald Sanborn (2002)
    Bp. Robert Neville (2005)
    Bp. Andres Morello, SJM (2006)
    Bp. Joseph Selway (2018)

    Bp. Peter Hillebrand (1991)
    Bp. Mark Pivarunas, CMRI (1991)
    Bp. Daniel Dolan (1993)
    Bp. Martin Davila, SST (1999)
    Bp. Giles Butler, OFM (2005)
    Bp. Luis Madrigal (2007)
    Bp. Bonaventure Strandt, OFM (2012)
    Bp. Rodrigo da Silva (2021)


    Offline Todd The Trad

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 594
    • Reputation: +192/-8
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #26 on: November 26, 2021, 05:45:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • People should read Archbishop Thuc's autobiography.  It's incredibly moving.  He suffered much in his life.  After his relatives were brutally αssαssιnαtҽd (I think that one was buried alive) by the Communists, he then went against the Conciliar establishment and ended up living in a ratty apartment just helping out hearing confessions to be able to make some kind of living for himself.  He was well known to and trusted by Archbishop Lefebvre.  In fact, one of his earliest mistakes, the Palmar consecrations, was under the influence of Archbishop Lefebvre.  Originally the SSPX seminary professor who eventually took +Thuc to Palmar asked Archbishop Lefebvre to come, but the Archbishop was busy and told him to go see +Thuc.  Archbishop Thuc responded that if Our Lady wanted him to go, he would go.  So out of a misguided devotion to Our Lady, +Thuc was led to Palmar.  And in most of his other mistakes, he believed that he was doing the will of God.  All those who continue to slander Bishpop Thuc need to read his autobiography.  I found it incredibly moving, and it was in no way the product of a mind which was incapable of performing a valid consecration.

    It was also Bishop Webster, with whom I was friends (the one who infamously attempted the consecration of Father Pfeiffer), who told me that he had served Mass for +Thuc and found him to be extremely devout in offering Mass, and that he was quite lucid.  He reported that when +Thuc was at dinner with priests from various countries, he would switch between languages and not skip a beat keeping track of each conversation.
    I am going to read it soon. Is it written at a time when Thuc was professing sedevacantism? 
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!

    Offline moneil

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 731
    • Reputation: +565/-62
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #27 on: November 26, 2021, 07:15:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    In +W's earlier years, he was the most articulate spokesmen for advising Catholics to avoid the Novus ordo missae.
    I recall him stating that the new-mass liturgy had removed any reference to Our Lady.


    Offered only as a point of information (without otherwise commenting on the 1969 Missal), but the above statement that "any reference to Our Lady" has been removed from the Novus Ordo missal is not true.

    Our Lady is mentioned in each of the four Canons.  There is a common preface of the Blessed Virgin Mary used on Marian feasts and the Mass offered on the Solemnities of the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception (both Holy Days of Obligation in the United States) have proper prefaces.  These all specifically reference Our Lady (the Preface typically doesn't).  The Blessed Virgin Mary is also invoked in the Confiteor of the 1969 Missal.



    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9329
    • Reputation: +9129/-872
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #28 on: November 26, 2021, 07:45:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • You're correct.  The Blessed Virgin Mary was not completely removed from the new mass.

    Depending on which Novus ordo mass communion prayer is used, the Virgin Mary is mentioned in simple terms, (3) to (4) times.

    The Tridentine Mass mentions Our Lady, in much more elaborate (9) times, when praying the standard the Leonine prayers at the end of Mass.



    NOVUS ORDER OF MASS (previous)
     
    INTRODUCTORY RITES 
    ENTRANCE SONG  
      
    In the name of the Father,
     and of the Son,
     and of the Holy Spirit.
     Amen.
     

     The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ
     and the love of God
     and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit
     be with you all.
     And also with you.
     

     My brothers and sisters,
     to prepare ourselves
     to celebrate the sacred mysteries,
     let us call to mind our sins.
      
    I confess to almighty God,
     and to you, my brothers and sisters,
     that I have sinned
     through my own fault
     in my thoughts and in my words,
     in what l have done,
     and in what l have failed to do.
     And
    I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,
     all the angels and saints,
     and you, my brothers and sisters,
     to pray for me to the Lord our God.
     

     May almighty God have mercy
     on us, forgive us our sins,
     and bring us to everlasting life.
     Amen.
     

     
    KYRIE
     Lord, have mercy.
     Lord, have mercy.
     

     Christ, have mercy.
     Christ, have mercy.
     

     Lord, have mercy.
     Lord, have mercy.
     

     
    GLORIA
     Glory to God in the highest,
     and peace to his people on earth.
     Lord God, heavenly King,
     almighty God and Father,
     we worship you, we give you thanks,
     we praise you for your glory.
     Lord Jesus Christ,
     only Son of the Father,
     Lord
    God, Lamb of God,
     you take away the sin of the world,
     have mercy on us;
     you are seated at the right
     hand of the Father, receive our prayer.
     For you alone are the Holy One,
     you alone are the Lord,
     you alone are the Most High,
     Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit
     in the glory of God the Father.
     Amen.
     

     
    OPENING PRAYER
      
     LITURGY OF THE WORD
      
     FIRST READING
     RESPONSORIAL PSALM
     SECOND READING
     ALLELUIA
      
     GOSPEL

     
     The Lord be with you.
     And also with you.
     

     A reading from the holy gospel according to...
     Glory to you, Lord.
     

     This is the gospel of the Lord.
     Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ.
     

     
    HOMILY
     
     THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

     We believe i
    n one God,
     the Father, the Almighty,
     maker of heaven and earth,
     of all that is seen and unseen.
     
     We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
     the only Son of God,
     eternally begotten of the Father,
     God from God, Light from Light,
     true God from true God,
     begotten, not made,
     of one Being with the Father.
     Through him all things were made.
     
     For us men and for our salvation
     he came down from heaven:
     by the power of the Holy Spirit
     he was born of the Virgin Mary,
     and became man.
     For our sake he was crucified
     under Pontius Pilate;
     he suffered death and was buried.
     On the third day he rose again
     in accordance the Scriptures;
     he ascended into heaven
     and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
     He will come again in glory
     to judge the living and the dead,
     and his kingdom will have no end.
     
     We believe in the Holy Spirit,
     the Lord, the giver of life,
     who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
     With the Father and the Son
     he
    is worshipped and glorified,
     he has spoken through the Prophets.
     
     We believe in one holy catholic
     and apostolic Church.
     We acknowledge one baptism
     for the forgiveness of sins.
     We look for the resurrection of the dead,
     and the life of the world to come.
     Amen.
     

     
    GENERAL INTERCESSIONS
     
     LITURGY OF THE EUCHARIST

     
     Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation.
     Through your goodness we have this bread to offer,
     which earth has given and human hands have made.
     It will become for us the bread of life.
     Blessed be God for ever.
     

     Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation.
     Through your goodness we have this wine to offer,
     fruit of the vine and work of human hands.
     I will become our spiritual drink.
     Blessed be God for ever.
     

     Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God,
     the almighty Father.
     May the Lord
     accept the sacrifice at your hands
     for the praise and glory
     of his name, for our good,
     and the good of all his Church.
     

     
    PRAYER OVER THE GIFTS
     Amen.
     

     The Lord be with you.
     And also with you.
     

     Lift up your hearts.
     We lift them up to the Lord.
     

     Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
     It's right to give him thanks and praise.
     
     
    EUCHARlSTIC PRAYER I
     
    We come to you, Father,
    with praise and thanksgiving,
    through Jesus Christ your Son.
     
    Through him we ask you to accept and bless a
    this bread and wine in preparation for their becoming
    the living body and blood of your Son.
    We ask that our worthy sacrifices of each day
    be joined with his one perfect offering.
     
    We ask blessings for your holy catholic Church,
    watch over it, Lord, and guide it;
    help us accept your peace that there may be
    a united people of faith throughout creation.
    We offer our sacrifices for faithful priests,
    and for all who hold and teach the catholic faith
    that comes to us from the apostles.
    Remember, Lord, your people,
    especially those for whom we now pray, N. and N.
     
    Remember all of us gathered here before you.
    You know those who firmly believe in you
    and dedicate their amenability to you.
    We offer you our sacrifices of praise
    for our own good, and the good of
    those who are dear to us.
    We pray to you, our living and true God,
    for our well-being and redemption.
     
    In union with the whole Church
    we honor Mary,
    the ever-virgin mother of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.
    We honor Joseph, her husband,
    the apostles and martyrs
    Peter and Paul, Andrew,
    [ James, John, Thomas, James, Philip,
    Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Jude;
    we honor Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus,
    Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus,
    John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian ]
    and all the saints.
     
    May their merits and prayers serve us today
    as they served the people of their own age.
    [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.]
     
    ______________
     
    Holy Thursday:
    in memory of the day when Jesus Christ, our Lord, gave the
    mysteries of His body and blood for His disciples to celebrate.
     
    Easter vigil to 2nd Sunday inclusive:
    born into the new life of water and the Holy Ghost.
    ______________
     
    Grant us your peace in this life,
    the peace that will turn us from final damnation,
    and count us among those you have chosen.
     [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.]
     
    Bless and approve our offerings made
    for the good of your church, so that they
    may be united in spirit and in truth
    with this bread and wine
    that will become the body and blood
    of Jesus Christ, your only Son, Our Lord.
    [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.]
     
    The day before Jesus suffered
    he took bread in his sacred hands
    and looking up to heaven,
    to you, his almighty Father,
    he gave you thanks and praise.
     
    He broke the bread,
    gave it to his disciples, and said:
     
    TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT IT:
     THIS IS MY BODY WHICH 
    WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.
     
    When supper was ended, he took the cup.
    Again he gave you thanks and praise,
    gave the cup to his disciples, and said:
     
    TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT;
     THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD,
     THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT.
     IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALL 
     SO THAT SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN. 
    DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
      
    P: Now let us – give recognition to our Lord Jesus.
    A-Lord you have died,
    Lord you have risen,
    Lord you are here again.
     
    P: Now let us petition our Lord Jesus.
    A-Dying you destroyed our death,
    rising you restored our life.
    Lord Jesus, bring us to your glory.
     
    P: Now let us express faith in our Lord Jesus.
    A-When we eat this bread and drink this cup,
    we proclaim your death, Lord Jesus,
    until you return in glory.
     
    P: Now let us give honor to our Lord Jesus.
    A-Lord, by your cross and resurrection
    you have set us free.
    You are the Savior of the faithful.
     
    Father, we celebrate the memory of Christ, your Son.
     
    We, your people and your ministers,
    recall his passion, his resurrection from the dead,
    and his ascension into glory;
    and through the many gifts you have given us
    we offer to you, God of glory and majesty,
    our acts of faith. We ask that they be joined
    with your son's holy and perfect offering
    that is consummated on Holy Friday and visualized in,
    the bread of life and the cup of eternal salvation.
     
    Look with favor on these offerings
    and accept them as once you accepted
    the gifts of your servant Abel,
    the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith,
    and the bread and wine offered by your priest Melchisedech.
     
    Almighty God,
    we pray that your angel may take our offerings
    to your altar in heaven to be sanctified.
    Then, as we receive Your Son from this altar,
     
    let us be filled with every grace and blessing.
    [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.]
     
    Remember, Father, those who have died
    and have gone before us marked with the sign of faith,
    especially those for whom we now pray, N. and N.
     
    May these, and all who sleep in Christ,
    find in your presence light, happiness, and peace.
    [Through Christ our Lord. Amen.]
     
    For ourselves, too, we ask
    some share in the fellowship of your apostles and martyrs,
    with John the Baptist, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas,
    [Ignatius, Alexander, Marcellinus, Peter,
    Felicity, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia]
    and all the saints.
     
    Do not consider what we truly deserve,
    but accept our confessions of sins,
    and grant us your forgiveness.
     
    We trust in your mercy and love.
     
    Through Christ our Lord
    you give us all these gifts.
    You fill them with life and goodness,
    you bless them and make them holy.
     
    Through him, with him, in him,
    in the unity of the Holy Spirit,
    all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father,
    for ever and ever.
     
    A-Amen.

     EUCHARlSTIC PRAYER II
     
     Father, it is our duty and our salvation,
     always and everywhere to give you thanks
     through your beloved Son, Jesus Christ.
     He is the Word through whom you made the universe,
     the Saviour you sent to redeem us.
     By the power of the Holy Spirit he took flesh
     and was born of the Virgin Mary.
      
     For our sake he opened his arms on the cross;
     he put an end to death
     and revealed the resurrection.
     In this he fulfilled your will
     and won for you a holy people.
      
     And so we join the angels and the saints
     in proclaiming your glory as we sing (say):
     Holy, holy, holy Lord.
     God of power and might.
     Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
     Hosanna in the highest.
     Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
     Hosanna in the highest.
     

     Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness.
     Let your Spirit come upon these gifts to make them holy,
     so that they may become for us the body + and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
     
     Before he was given up to death, a death he freely accepted,
     he took bread and gave you thanks. He broke the bread,
     gave it to his disciples, and said:
     
     TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT IT:
     THIS IS MY BODY WHICH 
    WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.
     
     When supper was ended, he took the cup.
     Again he gave you thanks and praise,
     gave the cup to his disciples, and said:
     
     TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT;
     THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD,
     THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT.
     IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALL 
     SO THAT SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN. 
    DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
     
     Let us proclaim the mystery of faith.
     Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again.
     

     In memory of his death and resurrection,
     we offer you, Father, this life-giving bread, this saving cup.
     We thank you
     for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you.
     
     May all of us who share in the body and blood of Christ
     be brought together in unity by the Holy Spirit.
     
     Lord, remember your Church throughout the world;
     make us grow in love, together with N. our Pope,
     N. our bishop, and all the clergy.
     
     Remember our brothers and sisters
     who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again;
     bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence.
     Have mercy on us all:
     make us worthy to share eternal life, with Mary,
     the virgin mother of God, with the apostles,
     and with all the saints who have done your will
     throughout the ages.
     May we praise you in union with them,
     and give you glory
     through your Son, Jesus Christ.
     
     Through him, with him,
     in him,
     in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honour is yours, almighty Father,
     for ever and ever.
     Amen.
     

     
    EUCHARlSTIC PRAYER III
     
     Father, you are holy indeed, and all creation
     rightly gives you praise.
     All life, all holiness
     comes from you through your Son,
     Jesus Christ our Lord,
     by the working of the Holy Spirit.
     From age to age you gather
     a people to yourself,
     so that from east to west
     a perfect offering may be made to
     the glory of your name.
     
     And so, Father,
     we bring you these gifts.
     We ask you to make them holy by
     the power of your Spirit,
     that they may become the body + and blood
     of your Son our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
     On the night he was betrayed,
     he took bread and gave you thanks and praise.
     He broke the bread,
     gave it to his disciples, and said:
     
     TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT IT:
     THIS IS MY BODY WHICH 
    WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.
     
     When supper was ended, he took the cup.
     Again he gave you thanks and praise,
     gave the cup to his disciples, and said:
     
     TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT;
     THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD,
     THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT.
     IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALL,
     SO THAT SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN.
     DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
     
     Let us proclaim the mystery of faith.
     Christ has died, Christ is risen,
     Christ will come again.
     

     Father, calling to mind the death your Son endured
     for our salvation,
     his glorious resurrection and ascension into heaven,
     and ready to greet him when he comes again,
     we offer you in thanksgiving this holy and living sacrifice.
     
     Look with favour
     on your Church's offering,
     and see the Victim whose death
     has reconciled us to yourself.
     Grant that we,
     who are nourished by his body and blood,
     may be filled with his Holy Spirit,
     and become one body,
     one spirit in Christ.
     
     May he make us an everlasting gift, to you
     and enable us to share in the inheritance of your saints,
     with Mary, the virgin Mother of God;
     with the apostles, the martyrs,
     Saint N. (the saint of the day or the patron saint)
     and all your saints,
     on whose constant intercession we rely for help.
     
     Lord, may this sacrifice,
     which has made our peace with you,
     advance the peace and salvation of all the world.
     Strengthen in faith and love your pilgrim Church on earth;
     your servant, Pope N.,
     our bishop N., and all the bishops,
     with the clergy and the entire people
     your Son has gained for you.
     Father, hear the prayers of the family
     you have gathered here before you.
     In mercy and love unite all your children
     wherever they may be.
     
     Welcome into your kingdom
     our departed brothers and sisters,
     and all who have left this world in your friendship.
     
     We hope to enjoy for ever the vision of your glory,
     through Christ our Lord,
     from whom all good things come.
     
     Through him,
     with him,
     in him,
     in the unity of the Holy Spirit,
     all glory and honor is yours,
     almighty Father,
     for ever and ever.
     Amen.
     

     
    RITE OF COMMUNION
     
     Let us pray with confidence to the Father
     in the words our Saviour gave us:
     
     
    PATER NOSTER
     Our Father, who art in heaven,
     hallowed be thy name;
     Thy kingdom come;
     Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
     Give
    us this day our daily bread;
     and forgive us our trespasses
     
    as we forgive those who trespass against us;
     and lead us not into temptation,
     but deliver us from evil.
     

     Deliver us, Lord, from every evil,
     and grant us peace in our day.
     
     In your mercy keep us free from sin
     and protect us from all anxiety
     as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior,
     Jesus Christ.
     For the kingdom,
     the power, and the glory are yours,
     now and forever.
     

     Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles:
     "I leave you peace, my peace I give you",
     look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church,
     and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom
     where you live for ever and ever.
     Amen.
     

     The Peace of the Lord be with you always.
     And also with you.
     

     
    AGNUS DEI
     
     Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world,
     have mercy on us.
     
     Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world,
     have mercy on us.
     
     Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world,
     grant us peace.
     

     This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
     Happy are those who are called to his supper.
     Lord, I am not worthy to receive you,
     but only say the word and I shall be healed.
     

     The body of Christ.
     Amen.
     

     
    PRAYER AFTER COMMUNION
     
     CONCLUDING RITE

     
     The Lord be with you.
     And also with you.
     

     May almighty God bless you,
     the Father, and the Son,
     and the Holy Spirit.
     Amen.
     

     Go in the peace of Christ.
     Thanks be to God.
      

     

      www.maranatha.it
    SESTRI LEVANTE (Genoa) Italy     
     
       
     
     
     


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Todd The Trad

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 594
    • Reputation: +192/-8
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Bp. Williamson on Thuc Consecrations
    « Reply #29 on: November 26, 2021, 08:19:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Archbishop Thuc's biography:
    http://www.einsicht-aktuell.de/index.php?svar=2&ausgabe_id=180&artikel_id=1920

    Those who continue to slander the Archbishop should read this before continuing.  In addition to his piety, you'll see that he recalls a great many deatails about dates and names (even the name of a couple cooks he had in Vietname, etc.).  His mind is clearly still quite sharp.
    I checked out the link you provided. Is that the full autobiography? I looked at it briefly and it had 4 parts. The 4th part looked like it ended when he was told about the supposed Marian apparitions and was going to go with those who came to his door. I didn't see anything further.

    Also, I was just reading an article about Thuc and I saw this in the comments;

    "That’s another story unto itself but I do know Clear Creek Monastery in Oklahoma accepted a Thuc priest from the Des Lauriers line and he offers Holy Mass for them."

    Does anybody know anything about this? There's a guy who used to be a monk at Clear Creek who left and became a sedevacantist. I'm going to ask him about this. I actually used to be a Benedictine Oblate with Clear Creek back when I held the Indult position. Thankfully I was only a Novice and quit before the novitiate was up. Here's a link to a youtube video the former monk made if anyone's interested;

     
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!