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Author Topic: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles  (Read 4961 times)

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Offline andy

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bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
« on: June 29, 2021, 08:47:16 PM »
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #1 on: June 29, 2021, 09:08:15 PM »
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    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #2 on: June 29, 2021, 09:39:15 PM »
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    • I do feel that Bishop Williamson is a bit irrational in considering alleged private revelations and miracles.  It would be easy for the devil to simulate these.

    To what end?  Well, precisely in order to persuade people that the NOM might not be so bad after all or that the NO orders are valid.  And it’s having precisely that effect here.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #3 on: June 29, 2021, 10:23:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 29, 2021, 09:39:15 PM
    To what end?  Well, precisely in order to persuade people that the NOM might not be so bad after all or that the NO orders are valid.  And it’s having precisely that effect here.

    Or instead, to reaffirm faith in the real presence, which that rite attacks.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline donkath

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #4 on: June 29, 2021, 11:20:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 29, 2021, 09:39:15 PM
    I do feel that Bishop Williamson is a bit irrational in considering alleged private revelations and miracles.  It would be easy for the devil to simulate these.

    To what end?  Well, precisely in order to persuade people that the NOM might not be so bad after all or that the NO orders are valid.  And it’s having precisely that effect here.


    Only the Church has the athority to rule on private revelations and miracles.   Until then great harm can be done such as those spoken of by Ladislaus and Sean.
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    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #5 on: June 29, 2021, 11:34:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: donkath on June 29, 2021, 11:20:12 PM

    Only the Church has the athority to rule on private revelations and miracles.   Until then great harm can be done such as those spoken of by Ladislaus and Sean.

    My post referenced a great good, not a great harm.

    Williamson’s opponents have from the beginning gratuitously decided that there can be no such thing as a NOM miracle, because such a miracle could only have a bad end (ie., keeping more people in the NOM).

    I say the opposite:

    It is possible God could effect an authentic Eucharistic miracle st a NOM to preserve conciliarists faith in the real presence (a dogma directly undermined by that rite, which God could choose to combat by such miracles).

    Whether such alleged miracles are authentic is another matter.  I merely show such a miracle could bear good fruit, contrary to the gratuitous position of His Excellency’s opponents.
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    Offline SperaInDeo

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #6 on: June 29, 2021, 11:51:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on June 29, 2021, 11:32:49 PM
    Bp. Williamson is correct. The New Mass is valid and confers Grace. The New Rite of Priesthood and Episcopacy is also valid. Also, the Church has already ruled on several of these Eucharistic Miracles. Pope Francis himself approved one of them in his former diocese in Buenos Aires. God wanted to work an approved Eucharistic Miracle in the former diocese of the curent Pope for a reason.
    False. That position on the validity of the NO is your’s and Taylor Marshall’s. 
    Bishop Williamson conditionally ordains all NO priests. And he still says to avoid the conciliar church at all costs. This is because of doubtfully valid sacraments and heresy/apostasy. 
    You are here to spread errors. 
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #7 on: June 30, 2021, 02:00:23 AM »
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    Pope Francis himself approved one of them in his former diocese in Buenos Aires.

    Certainly reveals where your faith lies.   Each and every single miracle has to be  confirmed by the Church handed down to us by the Apostles - not the counterfeit church headed by the heretic Bergoglio.
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #8 on: June 30, 2021, 02:13:56 AM »
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    Williamson’s opponents have from the beginning gratuitously decided that there can be no such thing as a NOM miracle, because such a miracle could only have a bad end (ie., keeping more people in the NOM)

    Speaking for myself, I have 'not decided there can be no such thing as a NO miracle'   If the one an only true Catholic & Apostolic Church founded by the Apostles approves them then I would do so. The counterfeit church under Bergoglio is anti-catholic.
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    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline donkath

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #9 on: June 30, 2021, 06:33:21 AM »
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    • Xavier Sem said:
    Quote
    Pope Francis is the Successor of St. Peter, ergo the Church is built on him.
    The Pope is only to be believed if he speaks on the faith and morals that have been handed down to us from the first Apostles (tradition).  He has no authority to re-define the traditional faith and morals as he has done when he says that Christ died so that we could sin.*  He is not to be believed when he departs from what has been handed down to us pre Vatican II Council - from Peter the first Pope.   You are saying that we have to obey Francis not St. Peter.    I hope you are not doing this deliberately, but that you, like trusting NO 'Catholics' have no idea of the limits placed on Papal Infallibility.  The faith that you profess in the above quote is that you believe in a Church (now) built on a universally accepted 'Pope' Francis Bergoglio.

    Bergoglio seems to have arrived at a position where he believes in all sincerity that God will do whatever he, Francis, asks Him.  


    *N.O. Catholics sincerely believe that they can receive Holy Communion when in a state of sin because the Pope said so (Popolatry) - same as you.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #10 on: June 30, 2021, 07:34:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on June 29, 2021, 11:32:49 PM
    Bp. Williamson is correct. The New Mass is valid and confers Grace. The New Rite of Priesthood and Episcopacy is also valid. Also, the Church has already ruled on several of these Eucharistic Miracles. Pope Francis himself approved one of them in his former diocese in Buenos Aires. God wanted to work an approved Eucharistic Miracle in the former diocese of the curent Pope for a reason.

    Xavier has spoken.  End of thread.  Matthew should just lock it now.
    Your “Church” also approves of adulterous cohabitation, religious indifferentism, and many other evils.  It’s lost all credibility.  Conciliar imprimatured works are replete with heresies these days.  Traditional Catholics are schismatic while Joe Bıdɛn continues on as a “devout Catholic” receiving the “Sacraments”.

    Your “Church” also disapproves of the SSPX and is on the verge of banning the Tridentine Mass.  When they do ban it, will you accept their holy judgment and attend your nearest clown Mass?

    You’re borderline ridiculous.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #11 on: June 30, 2021, 07:52:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: SperaInDeo on June 29, 2021, 11:51:16 PM
    False. That position on the validity of the NO is your’s and Taylor Marshall’s.
    Bishop Williamson conditionally ordains all NO priests. And he still says to avoid the conciliar church at all costs. This is because of doubtfully valid sacraments and heresy/apostasy.
    You are here to spread errors.
    Unfortunately, the bolded is not true.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #12 on: June 30, 2021, 08:37:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 30, 2021, 07:52:48 AM
    Unfortunately, the bolded is not true.
    Yes it is.
    He doesn't tell Trads, or anyone who will listen to him, they can attend the Novus Ordo.
    Don't tell me the Mahopac conference (from how many years ago? Six?) is still living in your head rent-free.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #13 on: June 30, 2021, 08:41:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 29, 2021, 11:34:26 PM
    It is possible God could effect an authentic Eucharistic miracle st a NOM to preserve conciliarists faith in the real presence (a dogma directly undermined by that rite, which God could choose to combat by such miracles).

    Whether such alleged miracles are authentic is another matter.  I merely show such a miracle could bear good fruit, contrary to the gratuitous position of His Excellency’s opponents.

    Traditionalists do have a common fault, and Tradition has a weak spot. There is a downside to the "Traditional Movement", and that is: a tendency to a "bunker mentality" where you hunker down with your family, get outta dodge, find yourself a Tridentine Mass somewhere, and let the whole world go to hell.

    Sorry, but Our Lord can't do that, and His holy faithful Bishops can't do that. Someone has to care about those HUMAN BEINGS with IMMORTAL SOULS who are CAPABLE OF PRAISING GOD FOR ETERNITY -- even if we Trads are saving our own souls by staying aloof from the Conciliar Mess. That might honestly be the best or only solution for us -- if we didn't, we'd get contaminated.

    NEVERTHELESS, it doesn't follow that everyone in the Novus Ordo is evil, lacks the Faith, or the whole thing is 100% invalid. +ABL never held this, so neither do I. I believe +Williamson is just following this line of reasoning and this teaching of the providential, saintly Archbishop.

    When +Williamson is admitting the Novus Ordo could be valid in some cases, he's being rational, going against his feelings, and practicing "agere contra" a.k.a. doing THE OPPOSITE of what comes natural to him. I know that's the case for me. Everything about the Novus Ordo turns me off. There's not even 1% nostalgia in it for me, since I never attended it. But I'm not going to exaggerate its evils, not even by 1%.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #14 on: June 30, 2021, 08:43:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on June 30, 2021, 08:37:39 AM
    Yes it is.
    He doesn't tell Trads, or anyone who will listen to him, they can attend the Novus Ordo.
    Don't tell me the Mahopac conference (from how many years ago? Six?) is still living in your head rent-free.
    But he does tell others they can attend the Novus Ordo. Has he ever reneged his advice to attend the NO in that conference?  No.  Does he still say miracles happen in the NO? Yes.

    At best, his position on the "conciliar church" is not clear when he does and says these things.  
     
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