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Author Topic: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles  (Read 7972 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
« Reply #90 on: July 02, 2021, 12:12:49 PM »
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  • The fruits of sedevacantism.


    The fruits of willful ignorance mixed with pride.  :facepalm:
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline andy

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #91 on: July 02, 2021, 12:18:02 PM »
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  • Especially since one can *still* try to elicit a perfect act of contrition.
    It takes a bit of humility to realize that the perfect act of contrition might not be possible given a state of a soul. This is probably why the Church always permitted following (this is the quote from fr Hesse (slightly edited YT CC)):
    Quote
    This is one of the reasons why the Church has allowed all priests, excommunicated priests included, to give the sacraments in case of what is called  articulo mortis when you're about to die when you're about to die. You could ask to confess to an excommunicated priest.

    Usually in the Church there's a principle you do not play with the sacraments but the Church's ruling on the merciful ruling on the extremely generous conditions in articulo mortis would certainly enable you to approach somebody who otherwise he would have never been able to approach.

     If i'm about to die in Russia and i can't get a catholic priest i'd be happy to have a Russian orthodox to hear my confession. The Church has always recognized the validity of the sacraments, all seven sacraments in the Russian orthodox Church.

    This is not a recommendation to go there i'm strictly answering your question you are about to die


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #92 on: July 02, 2021, 12:57:54 PM »
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  • The fruits of willful ignorance mixed with pride.  :facepalm:
    The fruits of stupidity.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #93 on: July 02, 2021, 12:59:05 PM »
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  • Fr Hesse's comments...
    Of course he was referring to certainly valid priests.

    Offline andy

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #94 on: July 02, 2021, 01:06:44 PM »
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  • Of course he was referring to certainly valid priests.
    He says "whether a priest or not" check the full piece: l https://youtu.be/zVohktUlTSA?t=970


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #95 on: July 02, 2021, 01:11:34 PM »
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  • He says "whether a priest or not" check the full piece: l https://youtu.be/zVohktUlTSA?t=970
    So...he is saying the Church teaches I can chance my dying confession with someone who is not a real priest? Please show me Catholic Church teaching that supports his remarks.

    Of course, I can't help note the irony that you're quoting a man that was ordained in the Novus Ordo New rite.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #96 on: July 02, 2021, 01:33:32 PM »
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  • He says "whether a priest or not" check the full piece: l https://youtu.be/zVohktUlTSA?t=970
    So...he is saying the Church teaches I can chance my dying confession with someone who is not a real priest? Please show me Catholic Church teaching that supports his remarks.

    Of course, I can't help note the irony that you're quoting a man that was ordained in the Novus Ordo New rite.
    What he says strictly pertains to a hypothetical situation, as such, he gave a hypothetical answer. I think his answer should not have left Divine Providence and the rest out, but nearly all people, even good clerics simply do not think of it at the time is what I think, which explains why he answered from a purely secular point of view.      
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline andy

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #97 on: July 02, 2021, 08:30:43 PM »
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  • So...he is saying the Church teaches I can chance my dying confession with someone who is not a real priest? Please show me Catholic Church teaching that supports his remarks.

    Of course, I can't help note the irony that you're quoting a man that was ordained in the Novus Ordo New rite.
    He is saying to take chances if you are firm about your faith and will not be swayed last minute in most important moment of your life. The worst case, if a "priest" is not validly ordained, she/he loses nothing and perhaps gains better contrition. Otherwise, the power of a sacrament takes place.

    The other comment comes across as quite mean, fr. Hesse checked with a SSPX bishop and a trusted priest that no conditional ordination in his case is needed.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #98 on: July 03, 2021, 05:51:18 AM »
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  • Yes, in one of his talks, Fr. Hesse says: "...I have been ordained, unfortunately in the new rite of ordination, but thank God in Latin, everything strictly by the book and +ABL said that would be valid, +Fellay said it's valid and Fr. Franz Schmidberger who is my present superior in Austria says it's valid and +Williamson said there's no need for conditional ordination...."

    I think overall that sedes believe it is certain that all NO ordinations are definitely invalid, but +ABL et al never held that line of thinking, only that there are many NO ordinations that truly are invalid. 


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #99 on: July 03, 2021, 06:30:01 AM »
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  • Yes, in one of his talks, Fr. Hesse says: "...I have been ordained, unfortunately in the new rite of ordination, but thank God in Latin, everything strictly by the book and +ABL said that would be valid, +Fellay said it's valid and Fr. Franz Schmidberger who is my present superior in Austria says it's valid and +Williamson said there's no need for conditional ordination...."

    I think overall that sedes believe it is certain that all NO ordinations are definitely invalid, but +ABL et al never held that line of thinking, only that there are many NO ordinations that truly are invalid.
    No....overall sedes believe that all NO ordinations and episcopal consecrations are not certainly valid.  I just heard that my very dear NO priest just passed away.  He was also ordained in the New Rite by an Old Rite bishop (much like Fr Hesse).  I still question whether he was a true priest (although I do believe he had a better chance of being valid).  Those NO priests that were ordained by Old Rite bishops are even disappearing now.  

    Even so, if he were to give the same advice as Fr Hesse did above, I would say the same thing.  I think it would be best that those who wish to convey that one should give their deathbed confession to a NO/doubtfully ordained priest shouldn't use the advice of someone who was ordained in the doubtful NO. I am still looking for Church teaching from andy that says a Catholic should do that (as opposed to a certainly valid excommunicated or schismatic priest).    

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #100 on: July 03, 2021, 10:23:59 AM »
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  • No....overall sedes believe that all NO ordinations and episcopal consecrations are not certainly valid.  I just heard that my very dear NO priest just passed away.  He was also ordained in the New Rite by an Old Rite bishop (much like Fr Hesse).  I still question whether he was a true priest (although I do believe he had a better chance of being valid).  Those NO priests that were ordained by Old Rite bishops are even disappearing now.  

    Even so, if he were to give the same advice as Fr Hesse did above, I would say the same thing.  I think it would be best that those who wish to convey that one should give their deathbed confession to a NO/doubtfully ordained priest shouldn't use the advice of someone who was ordained in the doubtful NO. I am still looking for Church teaching from andy that says a Catholic should do that (as opposed to a certainly valid excommunicated or schismatic priest).    
    Agreed:
    Far better to be certainly damned, than only probably saved.
    :facepalm:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #101 on: July 04, 2021, 05:29:50 AM »
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  • I get where 2V is coming from, but also, fr Hesse isnt just saying "I think my orders are valid" he's saying "Lefebvre, Williamson, fellay, and fr schmidtberger all say my orders are valid.". For an R and R that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for dissent.  Basically most of the serious R and R figures said his orders were valid.


    Now for a sedevacantist that's less convincing and indeed I believe this is part of why the nine left Lefebvre. 

    I think pope innocent said Catholics could accept doubtful sacraments in danger of death but I don't have a quote on hand 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #102 on: July 04, 2021, 06:33:39 AM »
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  • So...he is saying the Church teaches I can chance my dying confession with someone who is not a real priest? Please show me Catholic Church teaching that supports his remarks.

    Of course, I can't help note the irony that you're quoting a man that was ordained in the Novus Ordo New rite.

    It is in fact permitted to avail oneself of DOUBTFUL Sacraments in danger of death ... whether a doubtful priest or doubtful matter (e.g. something other than pure water for Baptism) ... if that’s your only available option.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #103 on: July 04, 2021, 06:37:29 AM »
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  • It is in fact permitted to avail oneself of DOUBTFUL Sacraments in danger of death ... whether a doubtful priest or doubtful matter (e.g. something other than pure water for Baptism) ... if that’s your only available option.
    Please provide Church teaching.  I will accept it if I see Church teaching.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #104 on: July 04, 2021, 09:40:29 AM »
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  • Please provide Church teaching.  I will accept it if I see Church teaching.
    I'm with you 2V, I do not believe the Church would teach such a thing. I could well be wrong but I don't think anyone ever doubted the validity of Extreme Unction until V2 because prior to V2, such a thing was unthinkable.

    I mean it would take V2 itself to say we can receive the doubtful sacrament from a NO priest lol  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse