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Author Topic: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles  (Read 7971 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2021, 06:18:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 01, 2021, 05:32:43 AM
    What?

    So if you’re in the state of sin and get in a bad car accident suffering life threatening injuries, and a Novus Ordo priest pulls over to hear your confession, you would rather go to hell than make a confession to him?

    Not too bright.


    1) If he actually had the ability to make a good confession, he would probably have time to contact an unquestionably validly ordained priest.
    2) If I was that close to death and had enough faculties to make a confession, I would instead be making repeated acts of perfect contrition and not stressing over the validity of the priest.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #46 on: July 01, 2021, 06:22:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on July 01, 2021, 06:18:10 AM

    1) If he actually had the ability to make a good confession, he would probably have time to contact an unquestionably validly ordained priest.
    2) If I was that close to death and had enough faculties to make a confession, I would instead be making repeated acts of perfect contrition and not stressing over the validity of the priest.
    Ridiculous.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #47 on: July 01, 2021, 06:40:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 01, 2021, 05:32:43 AM
    What?

    So if you’re in the state of sin and get in a bad car accident suffering life threatening injuries, and a Novus Ordo priest pulls over to hear your confession, you would rather go to hell than make a confession to him?

    Not too bright.
    You are not understanding it at all. You don't get that it simply does not work that way.

    If it were me that was in the state of sin and got in a bad car accident suffering life threatening injuries, if God sent me a priest at all, God would *not* send me a NO priest - of this I have no doubt whatsoever.

    Why do you think that God would send me that which I have faithfully and with firm purpose, avoided my whole life? Why would He torture me and do that in my last agony? God is not a monster!

    I have zero doubt that if God were to send me a priest at all, He would send me one I knew was an authentic traditional Roman Catholic priest to administer to me the traditional sacraments, not some NO jazz conductor who doesn't even know Latin!

    That may be something you and something compromisers who wave both flags need to be concerned about, I don't know, but that does not concern me, nor should it be of any concern to trads who've shook the NO dust *completely* and kept the true faith. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #48 on: July 01, 2021, 06:53:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 01, 2021, 06:22:26 AM
    Ridiculous.
    If I didn’t think it would be harmful to you, I’d suggest for you to save yourself some time and go to your local NO church, but charity compels me to direct you otherwise. You’ve lost your path, Sean. Don’t try to make that square peg fit into the round hole.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #49 on: July 01, 2021, 07:05:28 AM »
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    • Given I have a rosary hanging from my car's rear view mirror, I suspect that if I were in a serious car accident and I was alone, they would get me a Novus Ordo priest.  However, given I know for a fact that there is not ONE certainly valid active priest in the whole state of Vermont, I would NOT accept him.  And quite honestly, as I have said earlier, the chances that any Novus Ordo priest is certainly valid this late in the post Vatican II game are so miniscule.  

    The LAST thing I want to do before I die is make a mockery of the Lord's sacrament of confession.   
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #50 on: July 01, 2021, 07:33:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 01, 2021, 06:40:52 AM
    You are not understanding it at all. You don't get that it simply does not work that way.

    If it were me that was in the state of sin and got in a bad car accident suffering life threatening injuries, if God sent me a priest at all, God would *not* send me a NO priest - of this I have no doubt whatsoever.

    Why do you think that God would send me that which I have faithfully and with firm purpose, avoided my whole life? Why would He torture me and do that in my last agony? God is not a monster!

    I have zero doubt that if God were to send me a priest at all, He would send me one I knew was an authentic traditional Roman Catholic priest to administer to me the traditional sacraments, not some NO jazz conductor who doesn't even know Latin!

    That may be something you and something compromisers who wave both flags need to be concerned about, I don't know, but that does not concern me, nor should it be of any concern to trads who've shook the NO dust *completely* and kept the true faith.

    Well, if you've made your First Fridays, God will definitely send you a VALID priest.  Based on those promises, if God sent me an NO priest, then I would have to conclude he was valid (some how, some way) ... whether because the rite was in fact valid (we only have DOUBTs and not certainty, until the Church speaks) or whether he was, say, an ex-Eastern Rite priest or ex-Traditionally-ordained priest (former SSPX or something).
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #51 on: July 01, 2021, 09:43:41 AM »
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    • It comes down to a matter of how deep is one's faith.   If you firmly and unstintingly believe then your faith will move mountains.  I'm with Stubborn.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #52 on: July 01, 2021, 10:08:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: donkath on July 01, 2021, 09:43:41 AM
    It comes down to a matter of how deep is one's faith.   If you firmly and unstintingly believe then your faith will move mountains.  I'm with Stubborn.

    Then you two are poster children for anti-intellectual emotionalism.

    Rather go to hell than confess to a Novus Ordo priest while on your death bed in a state of sin.

    The Devil would surely congratulate you for your...ahem...”fidelity,” and hope you could persuade many more idiots of your stupidity.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #53 on: July 01, 2021, 10:25:38 AM »
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    • Quote
    Rather go to hell than confess to a Novus Ordo priest while on your death bed in a state of sin.

    :facepalm:  They didn't say that. 
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #54 on: July 01, 2021, 10:26:54 AM »
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    • No we didn't.
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    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #55 on: July 01, 2021, 10:42:56 AM »
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    • Sean has the understanding of your typical Indulter, i.e. "the new mass is valid but inferior to the True Mass." Has eyes but blinds himself.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #56 on: July 01, 2021, 10:44:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 01, 2021, 10:42:56 AM
    Sean has the understanding of your typical Indulter, i.e. "the new mass is valid but inferior to the True Mass." Has eyes but blinds himself.
    This is what happens when we dip even the tips of our Catholic toes in the NO.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #57 on: July 01, 2021, 10:54:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 01, 2021, 10:44:43 AM
    This is what happens when we dip even the tips of our Catholic toes in the NO.
    Yes this!
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online ByzCat3000

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #58 on: July 01, 2021, 11:39:43 AM »
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    • If you're in danger of death, from what I understand you are allowed to confess to any priest, or even a priest who is in schism or who has doubtful validity. From what I understand the only way you are not allowed to confess in a case of danger of death  is that you are certain that the priest is invalid.

    Stubborn's argument is that God would never put him in a situation we're the only priest he had available was an NO priest. Okay maybe, but that's a different question then whether theoretically, if that was the situation you ended up in, that you would confess to him.

    Given that from what I understand the church has ruled on the legitimacy of giving a confession to a doubtfully valid priest, it would therefore seem that the church hasn't said the situation is impossible.

    Now if you dogmatically take the sedevacantist position, and you definitively, 100%, believe that the priest is invalid then of course you wouldn't confess to him. If somehow I ended up in a situation where the only minister at my bedside was a Lutheran, I obviously wouldn't confess my sins to him. Instead I would try to make an act of perfect contrition and hope for the best. I KNOW He's not a priest.

    But it doesn't seem that most people on this forum believe that. It seems that most people on this forum would believe that there is some doubt whether or not these are valid priests or not. I'm going to assume that despite his posturing, that this is technically the position that stubborn holds

    As such, I honestly agree with Sean here. I think that is objectively irrational to refuse to make the confession to the NO priest.

    The accusations against Sean that he thinks the NO is valid but just not as good, is kind of irrelevant here. It's irrelevant because we aren't talking about attending the new mass if that was the only mass that was available. We're talking about confessing our sins to a diocesan priest. And there, the only question that matters is whether it's potentially valid or whether it's definitively invalid. That's literally it. It doesn't even matter if they're Catholic or not. Church says you can confess to an EO priest on danger of death.
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    Offline andy

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #59 on: July 01, 2021, 12:05:37 PM »
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    • More nuanced answer from fr. Hesse  https://youtu.be/zVohktUlTSA?t=970 (the 10 seconds piece before about SSPX is priceless by the way)

    Quote
    16:13 if one were suddenly dying
    16:18  stay in the
    16:20 hospital yeah and ah you couldn't
    16:22 get a priest you couldn't get a priest
    16:24 yes which is
    16:26 a local priest
    16:29 uh difficult question for this for the
    16:32 simple reason
    16:33 uh you forced me to be a jesuit again
    16:38 yes and now
    16:42 depends how firm you are you say
    16:45 if i have absolutely nobody to go to for
    16:48 confession
    16:48 of course confession is a little bit
    16:50 better than just the usual act of
    16:52 contrition if you know what i mean
    16:53 do i have to explain that no okay thank
    16:56 you
    16:57 um so confession of course is a lot more
    17:00 than just an actor contrition
    17:02 i guess uh my practical mind would say
    17:06 you chance it
    17:08 but that's only true if there's no
    17:11 danger that this man
    17:14 whether priest or not with a heretic or
    17:16 not could get you off the track
    17:18 in your last moments so if you're firm
    17:22 in you faith
    17:23 and if you know that you are actually
    17:26 risking
    17:28 to invite a heretic to accompany you
    17:31 in your last moments and you know that
    17:34 you will not accept any of his
    17:35 objections to church doctrine and
    17:38 church tradition then i would say just
    17:40 for a simple
    17:41 practical reason i would chance it like
    17:44 if i if my car breaks down on the
    17:46 highway or let's say
    17:47 i run out of fuel on the highway and
    17:50 well this i'm not talking about the
    17:52 civilized countries like the united
    17:53 states where you grab your phone or you
    17:55 will have somebody like in los angeles
    17:57 you'll have somebody passing every half
    17:59 hour to fill you up with gas
    18:02 says a lot about californians but you
    18:04 will have automatically every half hour
    18:06 somebody passes on the highway to fill
    18:08 you up
    18:09 now let's say you're down there
    18:11 somewhere in nevada or somewhere in the
    18:13 middle of nowhere in arizona or wyoming
    18:15 and you run out of gas and the next gas
    18:17 station says diesel only
    18:21 you will possibly not succeed but if you
    18:23 don't know enough about
    18:24 engines you might as well try so this is
    18:26 what i'm saying
    18:28 uh there is two aspects there is the
    18:31 question of the
    18:34 hey wait a second i don't have a
    18:35 driver's license
    18:37 i'm not supposed to know these things uh
    18:39 i can drive street cars
    18:41 so the point is uh as long as you are
    18:46 certain that your faith is not
    18:49 in danger at the very last and therefore
    18:51 most important moment in your life
    18:54 i i i would chance it maybe some people
    18:57 would now say father has
    18:58 is an indifferentist but i'm not
    19:02 i mean you're talking about you're
    19:04 talking about despair
    19:06 you're about to die and there's no
    19:07 catholic priest available
    19:11 now the church this is one of the
    19:12 reasons why the church has allowed
    19:14 all priests excommunicated priests
    19:17 included
    19:19 to give the sacraments in case of what
    19:22 is called pericolon martis
    19:25 in articulo martis when you're about to
    19:29 die
    19:30 when you're about to die you could ask
    19:33 to confess to an excommunicated priest
    19:37 usually in the church there's a
    19:39 principle you do not play with the
    19:41 sacraments
    19:42 but the church's ruling on the merciful
    19:45 ruling
    19:46 on on the uh extremely generous
    19:49 conditions
    19:49 in articulo martis would certainly
    19:53 enable you
    19:54 to approach somebody who otherwise he
    19:56 would have never been able to approach
    19:58 if i if i'm about to die in russia
    20:01 and i can't get a catholic priest i'd be
    20:04 happy to have a russian orthodox to hear
    20:06 my confession
    20:07 the church has always recognized the
    20:09 validity of the sacraments
    20:10 all seven sacraments in the russian
    20:13 orthodox church
    20:14 this is not a recommendation to go there
    20:17 i'm strictly answering your question you
    20:19 are about to die
    20:21 and you cannot find the catholic priest
    20:24 would the per would be that the attitude
    20:26 given by a novus ordo priest would it be
    20:28 valid
    20:29 i'm not talking about there's a
    20:30 difference i'm not talking about
    20:31 diviatico
    20:33 the viaticom is not necessary necessary
    20:36 is
    20:36 confession alone necessary
    20:40 and that's not even necessary in the
    20:42 sense of being able to die with an act
    20:43 of contrition
    20:44 but confession is a lot more than just
    20:46 an act of contrition
    20:48 and and very highly recommendable would
    20:50 be extreme action
    20:51 not talking about the article as far as
    20:53 the article is concerned that means holy
    20:55 communion
    20:56 you have to respect what uh blessed
    21:00 innocent the eleventh said
    21:03 that's uh indenting meth 2101
    21:08 where blessed innocent xi says in case
    21:10 of doubt you are not allowed to approach
    21:12 doubtful sacraments
    21:16 and as far as the viaticuм is concerned
    21:18 now what happens today
    21:20 i can tell you about the military uh a
    21:23 military
    21:24 chaplain in austria who thought that if
    21:27 he put unconsecrated hosts
    21:30 together with consecrated hosts into the
    21:33 tabernacle
    21:34 they would be consecrated which is what
    21:36 we call
    21:37 the consecration of the consecration
    21:42 so
    21:48 you have a concentrated hose you touch
    21:51 an unconsecrated hose
    21:52 and just like
    21:55 with the with the like like me does
    21:58 you know everything me does touch turned
    22:01 into gold
    22:02 so yeah you have to face the fact that
    22:04 we are confronted with priests who are
    22:06 so absolutely idiotic
    22:09 this man is not a deliberate heretic
    22:12 he's just an idiot so we are we're
    22:15 confronted with priests who are so
    22:16 totally
    22:17 absolutely incredibly idiotic that they
    22:20 really think if the housekeeper
    22:24 that's what he said if the housekeeper
    22:27 uh before going to bed at night checks
    22:29 the church
    22:30 checks the tabernacle and says there's
    22:33 not enough consecrated hosts in here i
    22:35 better add some
    22:37 and add some host to it they would be
    22:39 consecrated
    22:40 now once you get to that point you will
    22:41 understand why i say
    22:44 when you're in the hospital and you're
    22:45 about to die
    22:47 try your best with confession but refuse
    22:49 communion
    22:50 if you don't know what's going on that
    22:52 would be according to the spirit of the
    22:54 church because
    22:55 i mean i'm only calling innocent the
    22:56 11th and if you don't believe me check
    22:59 2101 or then singer and then tell me why
    23:02 i was wrong and i will correct myself
    23:04 publicly
    23:05 i'm just saying this is the way i see it
    23:08 because of a logical
    23:10 consequence the way the church are
    23:12 always
    23:13 judged cases like that see hans kung
    23:18 hans king is a heretic public heretic
    23:22 so he publicly is not a catholic priest
    23:25 but if i was about to die on an on on a
    23:28 german highway
    23:30 and believe me i would even if i'm about
    23:32 to die i'd still recognize that man
    23:35 hans green i'd ask him to hear my
    23:37 confession
    23:39 definitely but i'm not gonna ask him to
    23:42 pick up communion for me and give it to
    23:44 me or to celebrate mass for me
    23:46 i'll just say please hear my confession
    23:48 if he says no
    23:49 i will say okay you will be called in
    23:52 for whatever i would have had to confess
    23:54 now
    23:55 but if he says
    24:02 and i'm certainly going to confess to
    24:04 him because i have no
    24:05 no alternative in articulo martis
    24:09 you may chance it but not with our lord
    24:12 himself
    24:13 the church has always excluded this uh
    24:16 as far as the
    24:18 safety of the whole eucharist is
    24:20 concerned there is no mercy
    24:23 because that would be contradictory you
    24:25 cannot celebrate mass out of mercy
    24:28 you cannot distribute communion out of
    24:30 mercy
    24:32 and you cannot deal with the sacred
    24:34 species out of mercy
    24:38 the confession yeah
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