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Author Topic: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles  (Read 7945 times)

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Offline MMagdala

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Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2021, 09:46:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 04, 2021, 06:33:39 AM
    It is in fact permitted to avail oneself of DOUBTFUL Sacraments in danger of death ... whether a doubtful priest or doubtful matter (e.g. something other than pure water for Baptism) ... if that’s your only available option.
    If you (the receiver) doubt, what's the point?  If I have serious doubts about whether a piece of bread is consecrated, why would I receive "Holy" Communion?  It's disrespectful to Our Lord and obviously our minds and hearts are utterly transparent to Him.

    Catholicism is neither empty ritual nor superstition, even though there are definitely Catholics in both the N.O. and in trad chapels who behave as if it is both.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #106 on: July 04, 2021, 11:52:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: MMagdala on July 04, 2021, 09:46:46 AM
    If you (the receiver) doubt, what's the point?

    Because anyone with half a brain (which evidently excludes you) knows that a chance at heaven is better than the certainty of hell?

    :facepalm:
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #107 on: July 04, 2021, 12:17:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 04, 2021, 11:52:51 AM
    Because anyone with half a brain (which evidently excludes you) knows that a chance at heaven is better than the certainty of hell?

    :facepalm:
    Why would you post such an insulting reply to what some might consider a logical question of mine?  The problem is the doubt, not the availability of inferior sacramental rites.  We benefit from sacraments, once we have attained the age of reason, proportional to our disposition to them -- the level of our belief, the level of our trust, our surrender to grace, etc.
    Fearing the certainty of Hell for responding in kind to your insult, I shall refrain from doing so. Have a blessed day.
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #108 on: July 04, 2021, 01:06:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 29, 2021, 09:39:15 PM
    I do feel that Bishop Williamson is a bit irrational in considering alleged private revelations and miracles.  It would be easy for the devil to simulate these.
    The following is from the article, leaving me wondering why the enemy would want to elicit a "significant rise in the piety and religious practice of local Catholics."
    "a parish Sister went to check on the dissolving Host, she saw in its centre some matter intensely red in colour, like a blood clot. She immediately informed the parish priest who came with other priests to observe what looked like a piece of living flesh. All observers were amazed. Next came the local Archbishop, of Bialystok, with several diocesan officials. All of them were deeply moved. By the Archbishop’s instructions, on October 30 the Host was removed from the water, transferred onto a small corporal and placed in the Tabernacle to dry out. To this day it retains the form of a blood clot.
    On January 7, 2009, a sample from the Host was taken to be examined by two pathomorphologists, separately, at the nearby Medical University of Bialystok. Their unanimous judgment, but independent of one another, was that “of all the tissues of living organisms, the sample most resembles human myocardial tissue,” from the left ventricle of the heart, typical for a living person in a state of agony. Furthermore both pathologists found, presumably under their microscopes, that the fibres of the myocardial tissue and the structure of the bread were so tightly bonded together that any possibility of a human fabrication was ruled out. On January 29 this material and physical evidence was presented to the Metropolitan Curia in Bialystok, where the Church’s official judgment upon the supernatural origin of the occurrence is patiently awaited. In that wait, said the Archbishop in a sermon of October, 2009, decisive will be the spiritual fruits among Catholics. Already there has been a significant rise in the piety and religious practice of local Catholics, and from abroad there have been hundreds of pilgrimages, with numerous miracles of healing and conversion also taking place."
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    Offline MindTheStep

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #109 on: July 05, 2021, 06:03:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 04, 2021, 06:37:29 AM
    Please provide Church teaching.  I will accept it if I see Church teaching.

    Yes, I would also like to see this. Canon Law does allow us to approach any priest in case of danger of death, but this is understood to be schismatic or suspended priests.

    If one could approach doubtfully ordained priests then before Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical, and with no Catholic priest on hand, one could have approached an Anglican Vicar if in danger of death.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #110 on: July 05, 2021, 07:02:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: MindTheStep on July 05, 2021, 06:03:07 AM
    Yes, I would also like to see this. Canon Law does allow us to approach any priest in case of danger of death, but this is understood to be schismatic or suspended priests.

    If one could approach doubtfully ordained priests then before Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical, and with no Catholic priest on hand, one could have approached an Anglican Vicar if in danger of death.
    Yes this, on top of that, the said teaching would necessarily have to admit that the Church has an ordination rite that produces  doubtfully ordained priests.  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #111 on: July 09, 2021, 11:39:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 04, 2021, 06:37:29 AM
    Please provide Church teaching.  I will accept it if I see Church teaching.

    From the Catholic Encyclopedia article "Sacraments:"

    "Whatever may be said speculatively about the opinion of Ambrosius Catherinus* (see LANCELOT POLITI) who advocated the sufficiency of an external intention in the minister, it may not be followed in practice, because, outside of cases of necessity, no one may follow a probable opinion against one that is safer, when there is question of something required for the validity of a sacrament (Innocent XI, 1679; Denzinger-Bannwart, 1151)."

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm
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    Offline MindTheStep

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #112 on: July 09, 2021, 04:12:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on July 09, 2021, 11:39:50 AM
    From the Catholic Encyclopedia article "Sacraments:"

    "Whatever may be said speculatively about the opinion of Ambrosius Catherinus* (see LANCELOT POLITI) who advocated the sufficiency of an external intention in the minister, it may not be followed in practice, because, outside of cases of necessity, no one may follow a probable opinion against one that is safer, when there is question of something required for the validity of a sacrament (Innocent XI, 1679; Denzinger-Bannwart, 1151)."

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

    But in the same article the C.E. also states:
     
    “If we consider necessity alone — the Eucharist being left out as our daily bread, and God's greatest gift — three are simply and strictly necessary, Baptism for all, Penance for those who fall into mortal sin after receiving Baptism, Orders for the Church.”
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #113 on: July 09, 2021, 04:22:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: MindTheStep on July 09, 2021, 04:12:06 PM
    But in the same article the C.E. also states:
     
    “If we consider necessity alone — the Eucharist being left out as our daily bread, and God's greatest gift — three are simply and strictly necessary, Baptism for all, Penance for those who fall into mortal sin after receiving Baptism, Orders for the Church.”

    “Necessity” as discussed in the excerpt you provide pertains to necessity of means/necessity of precept (ie., which sacraments are strictly “necessary” for salvation.

    That topic is not germane to the present discussion.

    We are discussing the permissibility of availing ourselves of the sacraments of questionably ordained priests in a state of extreme physical necessity (which the excerpt I provided unambiguously affirms).
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #114 on: July 09, 2021, 04:52:08 PM »
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    • But we aren’t allowed to define “necessity” ourselves.  That is, “I needed to go to Communion, so I went to the new mass.”  The Japanese are the perfect example of being deprived of the mass for decades, whilst still keeping the Faith.  
    .
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #115 on: July 09, 2021, 05:35:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 09, 2021, 04:52:08 PM
    But we aren’t allowed to define “necessity” ourselves.  That is, “I needed to go to Communion, so I went to the new mass.”  The Japanese are the perfect example of being deprived of the mass for decades, whilst still keeping the Faith.  
    .
    Are you awake?

    What does this gibberish have to do with..anything?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #116 on: July 09, 2021, 07:43:14 PM »
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    • Another dodge by Sean.
    .
    MindtheStep, you make a good point.  But most on here don't want to face the fact.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #117 on: July 09, 2021, 08:22:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 09, 2021, 07:43:14 PM
    Another dodge by Sean.
    .
    MindtheStep, you make a good point.  But most on here don't want to face the fact.

    Please.

    You are like a little kid who doesn’t like the fact his position has been exploded.

    You aren’t even making any doctrinal arguments anymore!

    Because you can’t, of course.

    Just like in the Novus Ordo grace thread.

    I’m more than content to let you continue making a fool of yourself, but I would like to see you in heaven one day.

    That will require you to dislodge yourself from idiotic positions, which I hope for.

    But if my continued refutations only serve to harden your heart in error, it’s probably better for you -being ill-disposed to correction- if I let you be.

    Please pray for me.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #118 on: July 09, 2021, 08:47:52 PM »
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    • Yes, please leave this thread.  You turn every thread into a rock-throwing contest, instead of a rational discussion.  You can't entertain any view other than your own, because your hair-trigger temper prevents you from accepting an alternative viewpoint, being you imagine non-conformity as attack on your fragile ego.
    .
    Or, you just like to argue, which is a narcissistic personality trait.  Either way...
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: bp Williamson on NO Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #119 on: July 09, 2021, 09:41:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 09, 2021, 08:47:52 PM
    Yes, please leave this thread.  You turn every thread into a rock-throwing contest, instead of a rational discussion.  You can't entertain any view other than your own, because your hair-trigger temper prevents you from accepting an alternative viewpoint, being you imagine non-conformity as attack on your fragile ego.
    .
    Or, you just like to argue, which is a narcissistic personality trait.  Either way...
    Just pointing out one last time the emotional, non-doctrinal nature of your response.
    Pax.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."
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