Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: caeli34 on March 24, 2023, 03:34:39 PM
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I am a revert who found and fell in love with the SSPX. My husband is a TLM-er but less concerned about where he attends. We just moved from a large city with a SSPX priory to a very rural setting. We have a 3 year old and 18 month old who were baptized at an SSPX chapel. We have one on the way. The closest SSPX chapel is 1.5 hours away and it is a mission chapel that has mass once a month in the early evening. Between the drive time, mass time, and the age of my kids….we don’t make it there. We have a larger chapel 2.5 hours away but I’m worried if we join there we won’t attend there often and it will be harder for my kids to be involved with altar serving, sacrament prep, etc. So, we have been going to a local diocesan TLM. The diocese is hostile to TLM and I believe this church won’t be allowed to continue with the TLM much longer. We have not joined this parish either.
I want the new baby to be baptized by the SSPX preferably. Do we join the mission 1.5 hours away, only to never attend but maybe support financially, and hopefully have the priest there perform the baptism? We plan on being part of the mission chapel once our kids are slightly older and can handle the drive/time.
Or do we join the local diocese church where we have been attending and have the baptism there and then just switch once our kids are older and we are ready to do so? At least we are known at this church and by the priest.
Just looking for thoughts if any one else has been in this situation. Thank you!
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In the short term, I would get the sacraments from the sspx chapel, not the diocese. In the long term, I would move closer to a Trad chapel (not diocese). Moving to a rural setting, you've created your own problems. You have an obligation to attend Sunday Mass, every week. Your living situation should prioritize church over other considerations.
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How is it you moved but didn’t have this figured out? I have been thinking of relocating my family, and my #1 consideration is proximity to the Mass. there is a family that visits our parish sometimes, they recently moved from out of state and it’s a 2.5 hour drive. 2 young kids and a newborn. So it could be worse
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At least get the Baptism done at the SSPX mission chapel. You don't want to take any chance that the local will do it right.
Do they have the right intention?
Will they do the exorcisms using the old form?
Are the holy oils properly consecrated? (Or the minister himself)
Was the minister ordained specifically as an exorcist in the seminary?
Do you want the Godparents to see how determined you are to provide the best available, and that they should do the same if it falls to them?
I would rather stay home than go to any diocese function for these and many other reasons. I have to think twice about the SSPX too for that matter.
Whether you go to the TLM at first until the kids grow, don't skip a chance to start the child off with the essential foundation. That way what ever Mass you go to, you'll all be best disposed to benefit from it.
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For your kids' sake, avoid the Motarian chapel due to the reasons Shrew Operator implied with her rhetorical questions ... except that ...
Of course, these days you'd have to check on the ordination of the SSPX priests assigned to those chapels also, as some of them could have been ordained NOM and not conditonally ordained. You might also be fortunate enough to have an (undoubtedly elderly) pre-V2 ordained priest at the Motarian chapel, although there the holy oils may not be legit (although not essential for Baptism).
Given the answers to these, I'd look at possibly assisting at the 1.5-hour chapel once a month, at the 2.5-hour chapel once a month ... and then ... is there an Eastern Rite option close by (other than Maronite). Try to get a list of pre-V2 ordained priests closer to you at least for the Sacrament of Confession more regularly (most of them are likely retired by now, but there are a few still active out there).
In the meantime, before the children get to the age where they need more than just the Sacrament of Baptism, I'd consider moving back closer to a Traditonal chapel.
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www.Traditio.com
Has a great listing of nationwide latin masses, with "type" (i.e. sspx, sspv, diocesan). It is updated monthly.
I will pray for you and your situation. God bless you.
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FYI
I identify as male because I am.
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I guess upon further retrospection this boils down more to the issue that my husband does not care or does not see the difference between diocesan and SSPX. It’s all TLM to him. I want to support the SSPX. When I discuss with him he says I’m just being a loyalist. And that’s not what it is for me. I’ve always found truth and peace at SSPX chapels and my “loyalty” to them was confirmed during COVID when they were the only ones still saying mass. It should be apparent to him too since the diocese is trying to do away with the diocese TLM he likes there anyways.
He’s a good dad and husband. I’m not saying otherwise. Had I had the faith I do today back when I met him, perhaps I would have looked for someone with similar thoughts. But I’m faithful to the sacrament. Also, our move was out of necessity and he did what he had to do for the welfare of our family. Yes, it’s harder to get to TLM but not impossible and we knew that when we moved. I do not doubt in the least he followed Gods will with the move. I’m grateful for him for that.
I guess besides praying for him, I don’t have a lot of other options. We discussed it this morning and it resulted in words. I’m just going to go to the mission on my own with the kids and do what I can to the best of my ability. Maybe the priest can meet with me and advise. He also doesn’t contribute to the church so I’m not sure how we’ll ever be seen as members.
Appreciate the prayers for my family. I worry for my boys.
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Have your husband read the issues with the new rites of consecration/ordination. Also have him read +Ottaviani's report on the new mass. All TLM's are not the same.
New rite "priests" are doubtfully valid and they say the new mass (or publicly condone it). This is a moral issue. He needs to educate himself. If not, he'll be held accountable.
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Or do we join the local diocese church where we have been attending and have the baptism there and then just switch once our kids are older and we are ready to do so? At least we are known at this church and by the priest.
I would be curious to know to what extent this mindset now pervades SSPXers.
I suppose it was inevitable, once the SSPX embarked upon a course of dissolving itself into conservative conciliarism (i.e., the differences between a diocesan indult and SSPX Mass are much diminished compared to 10-15 years ago, such that the contrasts between the two are no longer as pronounced as they once were, which naturally leads the faithful to perform calculus' like this):
The sermons will be more or less the same; there will never be criticism of Rome; if the crisis in the Church should rarely arise, it will never be discussed in detail; same position on covid and vax's generally; faithful never discussing doctrine at social gatherings; etc.
As Dom Laurenco Fleichman once observed about the trads coming to Campos in the wake of their practical accord, "I think that the following affirmations are undeniable: The new people that will join you will not desire to convert to true Tradition. They will come to you because the legal obstacles have been removed, and not for reasons of faith. They will be very sympathetic, but they will not be seeking the whole truth with the doctrinal conviction that leads souls to martyrdom..."
https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Society_of_Saint_Pius_X/Open_Letter_to_the_Priests_of_Campos.htm
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I've noticed that "social media trads" have this mindset. They prefer Latin Mass because it's ancient and beautiful and pleasing to God but they do not know that they hold modernists beliefs. Any attempt to fraternally correct them is met with accusations of being intolerant and judgmental.
It's akin to the "trad wife" movement covered in another thread. They want to give the appearance of being a traditional Catholic because it fits their sensibilities and garners a lot of attention online.
I suspect soon this issue will be moot because SSPX will be the diocese. And I look forward to it because it will be good to see the truth out in the open. Catholics of good will may be less confused.
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I didn’t realize this forum was so anti-SSPX. The description at the top says this is for SSPX followers. I assumed that was a sincere description. I’ve gone to SSPV and CMRI. I’ve spoken to their priests. Choosing the SSPX for me was not an uneducated decision. I’m not going to argue the whys and what nots here about that decision.
I wouldn’t call anyone here intolerant and judgmental but it does reaffirm that there is a sect out there that really does not want to authentically help others who are seeking truth…they only want to further the hurt and embarrassment “newbies” might feel after suffering years of being poorly catechized (outside of their control usually subjected on them by Vat2 families and bad parochial schools) and having to navigate their faith without clear direction from trusted leaders/clarity.
For those who have given me some good solid resources to help my family and I….it is truly appreciated. May God bless you for your efforts and reward you!
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I didn’t realize this forum was so anti-SSPX. The description at the top says this is for SSPX followers. I assumed that was a sincere description. I’ve gone to SSPV and CMRI. I’ve spoken to their priests. Choosing the SSPX for me was not an uneducated decision. I’m not going to argue the whys and what nots here about that decision.
I wouldn’t call anyone here intolerant and judgmental but it does reaffirm that there is a sect out there that really does not want to authentically help others who are seeking truth…they only want to further the hurt and embarrassment “newbies” might feel after suffering years of being poorly catechized (outside of their control usually subjected on them by Vat2 families and bad parochial schools) and having to navigate their faith without clear direction from trusted leaders/clarity.
For those who have given me some good solid resources to help my family and I….it is truly appreciated. May God bless you for your efforts and reward you!
IMO, it's fine to attend an SSPX chapel. I have a big problem with the leadership of the SSPX and the direction it is going, but I still attend an SSPX chapel when I can make the 3 hour drive, which is difficult in the winter due to snow. The priest at the SSPX chapel that I attend is still good and solid. A lot of SSPX priests are still good, despite the problem with the leadership of the SSPX.
I converted to Catholicism through the SSPX, so I'm grateful to them for that. I received a good catechism from them, but that was before the 2008 and 2012 problems. I also think that if you have no other option, it's okay to attend a diocesan TLM, though many here will disagree. I would rather attend a diocesan TLM than stay home most Sundays and not go to mass at all. True, you won't hear anything about the disastrous V2 council at a diocesan TLM, but if you already know about it, you can just go for the sacraments, and be aware of the problems with a diocesan TLM. The sacraments are very import to me, and I suspect to you too. Ask Our Lord and Our Lady for direction, though you may have already done so.
IMO, it's also good to listen and take into consideration the views of your husband, even if you views conflict with his.
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True, you won't hear anything about the disasterous V2 council at a diocesan TLM, but if you already know about it, you can just go for the sacraments, and be aware of the problems with a diocesan TLM.
Ironically, the exact same thing can be said of an SSPX chapel (i.e., I haven't heard a sermon dedicated to refuting conciliar errors or Roman modernism in the last 10 years, and there have been 4 different priests in that time).
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How is it you moved but didn’t have this figured out? I have been thinking of relocating my family, and my #1 consideration is proximity to the Mass. there is a family that visits our parish sometimes, they recently moved from out of state and it’s a 2.5 hour drive. 2 young kids and a newborn. So it could be worse
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This is an fantastic post and you should not have received a downvote for this. When selecting a place to live, access to Mass and a chapel (preferably with a resident priest) must be the TOP priority. And if people live a distance from Mass, they have to attend as often as they can.
The Mass is the most important thing in the entire world, by far. Nothing else even comes close.
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This is an fantastic post and you should not have received a downvote for this. When selecting a place to live, access to Mass and a chapel (preferably with a resident priest) must be the TOP priority. And if people live a distance from Mass, they have to attend as often as they can.
The Mass is the most important thing in the entire world, by far. Nothing else even comes close.
I can see where a job transfer might put you in the boonies, and the only option would be destitution or accepting the transfer.
That said, I know of SSPXers who request dispensations from Mass to go on vacations. One apparently received a dispensation to go on vacation without Mass twice/year (and if they did, then it must be common practice for SSPX priests to grant such dispensations to others as well).
To get stuck without Mass is one thing, but to voluntarily and deliberately choose recreation over duty to God is a scandal to me.
What's the purpose of this life again???
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To get stuck without Mass is one thing, but to voluntarily and deliberately choose recreation over duty to God is a scandal to me.
What's the purpose of this life again???
As a kid we had a priest who every spring gave the same warning from the pulpit. It went something like this.
"Well we're in planning season for vacation. Remember this does not release you from your Sunday obligation. If you choose a vacation spot where there is no Mass,...there also will be no priest. If you should have an accident you will be in willful mortal sin without a priest."
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I can see where a job transfer might put you in the boonies, and the only option would be destitution or accepting the transfer.
That said, I know of SSPXers who request dispensations from Mass to go on vacations. One apparently received a dispensation to go on vacation without Mass twice/year (and if they did, then it must be common practice for SSPX priests to grant such dispensations to others as well).
To get stuck without Mass is one thing, but to voluntarily and deliberately choose recreation over duty to God is a scandal to me.
What's the purpose of this life again???
It occurs to me that this matter of SSPX and SSPXers requesting/granting/receiving dispensations from Mass is similar to same having rather lax requirements for NFP, and/or overemphasizing the importance of SSPX school attendance, and/or permitting the death vax:
All four cases seem to be based upon modernist "quality of life" considerations:
If the wife is too stressed out to have more kids (which becomes, "She'll suffer a nervous breakdown; I know this one woman...");
If she is too stressed out to homeschool (which again becomes, "She'll suffer a nervous breakdown...");
[The real solution is that husbands need to get off their asses and help out.]
If the husband is too stressed out by his own family that he needs to go away for longer than a week at a time fishing, hunting, or whatever (which becomes, "Otherwise he'll snap and leave his family...").
Or if both husband and wife need to be dispensed for a vacation (i.e., they need a break from God)...
Or if your job requires the abortion/death vax, well, "you need to support your family."
Of if your New Zealand SSPX school requires the clotshot, "Well if we don't comply, its back to homeschooling, which will be stressful for you, and a shame to close it after all the money we spent on it."
Backing up:
I recall a conference with Fr. Iscara in St. Paul (maybe around 2006?), in which he discussed end of life issues, and in the course of doing so, noted the modernist shift in medical morals, which since Vatican II has obscessed upon "quality of life considerations."
Seems like that same trend is to be found among trads/trad clergy, with the rationale being the same: "You need this, and things will be better for you."
No, I think things will be better for me if I manage to schedule my recreations around my duties, which is commonsense in every other aspect of life.
We commonly recognize one who places his recreations above his duties as a derelict in secular life. How much more so in the spiritual life should the same censure apply?
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I guess upon further retrospection this boils down more to the issue that my husband does not care or does not see the difference between diocesan and SSPX. It’s all TLM to him. I want to support the SSPX. When I discuss with him he says I’m just being a loyalist. And that’s not what it is for me. I’ve always found truth and peace at SSPX chapels and my “loyalty” to them was confirmed during COVID when they were the only ones still saying mass. It should be apparent to him too since the diocese is trying to do away with the diocese TLM he likes there anyways.
He’s a good dad and husband. I’m not saying otherwise. Had I had the faith I do today back when I met him, perhaps I would have looked for someone with similar thoughts. But I’m faithful to the sacrament. Also, our move was out of necessity and he did what he had to do for the welfare of our family. Yes, it’s harder to get to TLM but not impossible and we knew that when we moved. I do not doubt in the least he followed Gods will with the move. I’m grateful for him for that.
I guess besides praying for him, I don’t have a lot of other options. We discussed it this morning and it resulted in words. I’m just going to go to the mission on my own with the kids and do what I can to the best of my ability. Maybe the priest can meet with me and advise. He also doesn’t contribute to the church so I’m not sure how we’ll ever be seen as members.
Appreciate the prayers for my family. I worry for my boys.
Reading your OP two days ago, sentences 2 & 3 ("My husband is a TLM-er but less concerned about where he attends. We just moved from a large city with a SSPX priory to a very rural setting. ") gave me a hunch that what you said today was indeed the situation, but I didn't want to say so without hearing more details. It's difficult to be in your position, with obedience to your husband on one side and trying to do what's best for your children's souls on the other side. :pray: Please, fellow CathInfo people, she's an earnest recent revert and a concerned wife and mother, and that's why she's asking for advice. (Note boldface added above.) This thread isn't necessarily about the SSPX per se, nor about what other bad Catholics tangentially have done. It's about how to manage this particular complex and delicate situation. Caeli, perhaps give it some time and then the answers you need will arise, God willing.
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Reading your OP two days ago, sentences 2 & 3 ("My husband is a TLM-er but less concerned about where he attends. We just moved from a large city with a SSPX priory to a very rural setting. ") gave me a hunch that what you said today was indeed the situation, but I didn't want to say so without hearing more details. It's difficult to be in your position, with obedience to your husband on one side and trying to do what's best for your children's souls on the other side. :pray: Please, fellow CathInfo people, she's an earnest recent revert and a concerned wife and mother, and that's why she's asking for advice. (Note boldface added above.) This thread isn't necessarily about the SSPX per se, nor about what other bad Catholics tangentially have done. It's about how to manage this particular complex and delicate situation. Caeli, perhaps give it some time and then the answers you need will arise, God willing.
Yes, I got the same impression.
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I guess upon further retrospection this boils down more to the issue that my husband does not care or does not see the difference between diocesan and SSPX. It’s all TLM to him. I want to support the SSPX. When I discuss with him he says I’m just being a loyalist. And that’s not what it is for me. I’ve always found truth and peace at SSPX chapels and my “loyalty” to them was confirmed during COVID when they were the only ones still saying mass. It should be apparent to him too since the diocese is trying to do away with the diocese TLM he likes there anyways.
He’s a good dad and husband. I’m not saying otherwise. Had I had the faith I do today back when I met him, perhaps I would have looked for someone with similar thoughts. But I’m faithful to the sacrament. Also, our move was out of necessity and he did what he had to do for the welfare of our family. Yes, it’s harder to get to TLM but not impossible and we knew that when we moved. I do not doubt in the least he followed Gods will with the move. I’m grateful for him for that.
I guess besides praying for him, I don’t have a lot of other options. We discussed it this morning and it resulted in words. I’m just going to go to the mission on my own with the kids and do what I can to the best of my ability. Maybe the priest can meet with me and advise. He also doesn’t contribute to the church so I’m not sure how we’ll ever be seen as members.
Appreciate the prayers for my family. I worry for my boys.
Ouch. This doesn't feel right. I would address the priest validity issue for sure. If he understands that the priest in the diocese is more than likely doubtful, then perhaps he will want to go to the mission church as well.
And as for the move that got you farther away from mass, I understand. We were in a situation where we had to move farther away. We were already very far, but now farther. We still try to make mass monthly.
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I didn’t realize this forum was so anti-SSPX. The description at the top says this is for SSPX followers. I assumed that was a sincere description. I’ve gone to SSPV and CMRI. I’ve spoken to their priests. Choosing the SSPX for me was not an uneducated decision. I’m not going to argue the whys and what nots here about that decision.
I wouldn’t call anyone here intolerant and judgmental but it does reaffirm that there is a sect out there that really does not want to authentically help others who are seeking truth…they only want to further the hurt and embarrassment “newbies” might feel after suffering years of being poorly catechized (outside of their control usually subjected on them by Vat2 families and bad parochial schools) and having to navigate their faith without clear direction from trusted leaders/clarity.
For those who have given me some good solid resources to help my family and I….it is truly appreciated. May God bless you for your efforts and reward you!
Apologies, Coeli. I wasn’t making any judgments upon you, but was commenting more upon the current state of the SSPX (which is a bit off topic, admittedly, so I can see where you might have thought I was criticizing you personally).
In your situation, I’d drive the 1.5 hrs.
To get your husband on board, I’d use the old, “Honey, I don’t ask for much, but this is important to me.” Pour him a brandy, make him his favorite dinner, tell him he can get that four-wheeler, if only he’ll make this one small sacrifice for you.
I’d give you an 85% chance of success.
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And as for the move that got you farther away from mass, I understand. We were in a situation where we had to move farther away. We were already very far, but now farther. We still try to make mass monthly.
We had to move farther away too. If only traditional chapels were often located in areas with inexpensive homes. But that does not seem to be the case, at least in my area. The average home price in the area of the SSPX chapel that I used to be able to attend regularly is $825,000.
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I guess upon further retrospection this boils down more to the issue that my husband does not care or does not see the difference between diocesan and SSPX. It’s all TLM to him. I want to support the SSPX. When I discuss with him he says I’m just being a loyalist. And that’s not what it is for me. I’ve always found truth and peace at SSPX chapels and my “loyalty” to them was confirmed during COVID when they were the only ones still saying mass. It should be apparent to him too since the diocese is trying to do away with the diocese TLM he likes there anyways.
He’s a good dad and husband. I’m not saying otherwise. Had I had the faith I do today back when I met him, perhaps I would have looked for someone with similar thoughts. But I’m faithful to the sacrament. Also, our move was out of necessity and he did what he had to do for the welfare of our family. Yes, it’s harder to get to TLM but not impossible and we knew that when we moved. I do not doubt in the least he followed Gods will with the move. I’m grateful for him for that.
I guess besides praying for him, I don’t have a lot of other options. We discussed it this morning and it resulted in words. I’m just going to go to the mission on my own with the kids and do what I can to the best of my ability. Maybe the priest can meet with me and advise. He also doesn’t contribute to the church so I’m not sure how we’ll ever be seen as members.
Appreciate the prayers for my family. I worry for my boys.
"Every house divided amongst itself shall not stand" Matthew 12:25.
My Grandmother is Catholic. My grandfather never went to church, ever. 0 of their 5 children kept the faith.
If your husband won't budge, you should submit to him and at least appear to be united to your children.
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I didn’t realize this forum was so anti-SSPX. The description at the top says this is for SSPX followers. I assumed that was a sincere description. I’ve gone to SSPV and CMRI. I’ve spoken to their priests. Choosing the SSPX for me was not an uneducated decision. I’m not going to argue the whys and what nots here about that decision.
I wouldn’t call anyone here intolerant and judgmental but it does reaffirm that there is a sect out there that really does not want to authentically help others who are seeking truth…they only want to further the hurt and embarrassment “newbies” might feel after suffering years of being poorly catechized (outside of their control usually subjected on them by Vat2 families and bad parochial schools) and having to navigate their faith without clear direction from trusted leaders/clarity.
For those who have given me some good solid resources to help my family and I….it is truly appreciated. May God bless you for your efforts and reward you!
Meant to upvote not downvote you, caeli. I will pray for you.
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We found out the diocesan TLM priests are not allowed to do any other sacraments in the EF. Fortunately, my husband is on the same page on making sure the baby is baptized under the EF. So….we are joining the chapel 2 hours away And baby will be baptized by the SSPX priest.
Thanks for the replies, and the kind words. And for letting me know about the women’s forum on here as well. I think my concern is definitely a deeper issue with some of my husband’s indifference in matters of faith. The house divided comment and my children’s salvation and their faith upbringing is what I’m really seeking answers for. But….that’s a different thread on a different forum. Thank you all!