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Author Topic: Aspects of Purgatory  (Read 2326 times)

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Offline Todd The Trad

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Aspects of Purgatory
« on: June 25, 2022, 01:36:56 PM »
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  • Most of my study on purgatory comes from Catholic writers and saints from the medieval era on. The focus seems to generally be on punishment (temporal punishment to make satisfaction to God's justice for venial sins and remaining punishment for forgiven mortal sins) especially in catechisms. As we know we must complete the process of sanctification, becoming perfect and spotless, before we're able to attain perfect union with God in heaven. There are also Catholic writers and saints who teach that this process of sanctification is completed in purgatory if a soul departs from this life in the state of grace but has not yet been fully perfected/purified. I've been studying mental prayer lately and have learned more about the process of sanctification and how this directly corresponds to union with God in prayer. Before God brings the soul to mystical contemplation and eventually union, there is something called passive purification (think dark night of the senses and dark night of the soul described by St. John of the Cross). In this passive state the soul is detached from everything in order to desire God and God only. This state involves much suffering as the soul finds no consolation in the things of this world or even in prayer. All the soul desires is union with God Himself. God hides Himself from the soul in a way that effects this purification, causing the soul much anguish and suffering. They desire nothing but union with God, and this delay torments them. This sounds a lot like an aspect of purgatory on earth to me. We often hear it said that the worst suffering for the souls in purgatory is the fact that they desire only God but cannot unite with Him yet because of their imperfections. It would seem that this longing for God purifies the souls both in this world and or in the next. It seems to me that merely speaking of purgatory as a place of temporal punishment to make satisfaction to God's justice is insufficient. I am under the impression that purgatory has a duel purpose... 1.) To make satisfaction to God's justice (punishment) and 2.) To complete the process of sanctification (purification/perfection). Would this be accurate? Do these two reasons go hand in hand? When we have masses offered or other suffrages for the departed souls does this just make satisfaction for their sins or speed up the purification process or both? Why the focus on temporal punishment over sanctification?

    My second question which sort of goes with the first one is this... The eastern heretics or eastern Catholics seem to not believe in the doctrine of satisfaction. They seem to exclusively focus on sanctification (Theosis). Many often say that the Catholic or Western/Roman Church invented the doctrine of satisfaction and that God doesn't require or need satisfaction to his justice. They seem to believe that we need to be purified from our sins and faults but we don't need to make satisfaction for offending God. Thoughts on this? Anyone have any good quotes from the early Father's or scripture or books which prove the doctrine of satisfaction taught from the beginning? Even though these go hand in hand, I'm not focusing on Christ's passion being a satisfaction but the fact that WE must make satisfaction for our sins or endure temporal punishment. What do you guys think?   
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #1 on: June 25, 2022, 02:29:00 PM »
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  • Yes, I do believe that the purification that takes place during the Dark Nights, if not done in this life, would have to take place in Purgatory.

    And I have complained a bit about it before, that the Western emphasis about Purgatory has always been on satisfaction for sins committed, but I believe that perfection/sanctification is also required.  So, for instance, even if a person were free of all temporal debt due to sin (e.g. by receiving a plenary indulgence), this does not mean that the soul is prepared to enter into Heaven and the Beatific Vision.  That requires perfection and sanctification.  Of course, God can if He will accomplish that in an instant.

    In other words, I believe that BOTH satisfaction and sanctification are required.  In a sense, the two are related, and perhaps it's just a matter of emphasis between the East and the West.

    I've also wondered about the following scenario, where you have an otherwise sinful Catholic, with many defects, who is martyred (almost passively).  While the martyrdom most certainly remits the temporal punishment (satisfaction) due to sin, that soul would still be in need of some serious purification and sanctification in order to be fit for the Beatific Vision.

    Then what if you have an unrepentant mortal sinner who suffers martyrdom passively.  Let's say he's just walking in to Sunday Mass and some Muslim sniper shoots him in the back of the head on account of his being a Catholic.  He didn't know what hit him, and he never had the opportunity to repent of his mortal sin.  What then?

    There's a lot of strangeness with "Baptism of Blood" doctrine that seems unclear and pretty foggy.  Generally the Church Fathers attribute remission of sin to Our Lord's teaching that "no greater love" can one have than laying one's life down for the faith, i.e. that there's an ex opere operantis aspect to it, but later it was transformed into an ex opere operato effect, where even passive martyrdom without any heroic virtue involved would have the same results.  I think that something went off the rails somewhere.


    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #2 on: June 25, 2022, 05:19:45 PM »
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  • Yes, I do believe that the purification that takes place during the Dark Nights, if not done in this life, would have to take place in Purgatory.

    And I have complained a bit about it before, that the Western emphasis about Purgatory has always been on satisfaction for sins committed, but I believe that perfection/sanctification is also required.  So, for instance, even if a person were free of all temporal debt due to sin (e.g. by receiving a plenary indulgence), this does not mean that the soul is prepared to enter into Heaven and the Beatific Vision.  That requires perfection and sanctification.  Of course, God can if He will accomplish that in an instant.

    In other words, I believe that BOTH satisfaction and sanctification are required.  In a sense, the two are related, and perhaps it's just a matter of emphasis between the East and the West.

    I've also wondered about the following scenario, where you have an otherwise sinful Catholic, with many defects, who is martyred (almost passively).  While the martyrdom most certainly remits the temporal punishment (satisfaction) due to sin, that soul would still be in need of some serious purification and sanctification in order to be fit for the Beatific Vision.

    Then what if you have an unrepentant mortal sinner who suffers martyrdom passively.  Let's say he's just walking in to Sunday Mass and some Muslim sniper shoots him in the back of the head on account of his being a Catholic.  He didn't know what hit him, and he never had the opportunity to repent of his mortal sin.  What then?

    There's a lot of strangeness with "Baptism of Blood" doctrine that seems unclear and pretty foggy.  Generally the Church Fathers attribute remission of sin to Our Lord's teaching that "no greater love" can one have than laying one's life down for the faith, i.e. that there's an ex opere operantis aspect to it, but later it was transformed into an ex opere operato effect, where even passive martyrdom without any heroic virtue involved would have the same results.  I think that something went off the rails somewhere.
    Perfect Contrition almost has a similar fogginess to me, I really doubt there are as many explicit BoD/BoB/Perfect Act deaths as we are shilled on. God does what He wants and the problem with systemetizing these is all of a sudden things are seemingly on our terms rather than God's. For anyone to judge these cases is dangerous. I am actually 100% okay with explicit BoD/BoB if simply no one speculated and said "X the unbaptized catechumen is 100% in heaven". That, I suppose, removes a lot of the weirdness.
     
    I'm particularly thinking of your martyr scenario:

    If this man runs up and takes a bullet for the priest at the elevation, or takes a bullet covering a host when it was about to be desecrated by the Muslim you have the explicit, proactive intention of love. The "passive" martyrdom I agree, is shakier. Either way we cannot judge the internal form without the external actions. This is what I'm getting at and is really at the core of my uneasiness with BoD. 

    Fastforward to implicit BoD, where a Jєω who hates Christ makes it. If I'm not sure about a martyr then how much less sure am I about a Jєω, Hindu etc?
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #3 on: June 25, 2022, 06:03:00 PM »
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  • Then what if you have an unrepentant mortal sinner who suffers martyrdom passively.  Let's say he's just walking in to Sunday Mass and some Muslim sniper shoots him in the back of the head on account of his being a Catholic.  He didn't know what hit him, and he never had the opportunity to repent of his mortal sin.  What then?
    Based upon the fact he was in a state of mortal sin, then he goes to hell. He was given the Catholic faith, chose to sin, and was given an allotment of time by God to preserve his soul. He failed to do that and died in a state of mortal sin. God let him die in his sin because He knew the man had a bad will and would squander the time he was given to lead a life of holiness, so He allowed him to die a sudden death in that state.

    It's the same as those who are never given the Gospel and die in original sin and their natural sins. God knows they are of bad will and therefore they do not receive the Gospel. If they were of good will, God will find a way to provide them with the means necessary to be baptized and provided what is necessary for salvation, either miraculously or practically.

    And so it is with the dead member. He has all the means provided him to be saved, neglected them, and in his bad will fell into hell when his time came.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Shrewd Operator

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #4 on: June 25, 2022, 06:24:26 PM »
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  • Does sanctification have to be done voluntarily (even if passive) while alive? Can the soul be perfected in a qualitative way after death?

    As for text on satisfaction, I believe there's a quote from Maccabees that says something like, "It is a wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that the dead may be loosed from their sins."

    As far as passive martyrdom (without mortal sin, or where contrition is not known), we baptize infants assuming their passive consent because they can't rationally object to it and it's for their good. If that's good enough for the formal sacrament, a believing, rational adult who has the Faith, and dies in the public expression of it (with all the risk that that entails) is probably covered by the general intention he has to practice fortitude and magnanimity as his Faith may require.




    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #5 on: June 25, 2022, 06:47:22 PM »
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  • Based upon the fact he was in a state of mortal sin, then he goes to hell. He was given the Catholic faith, chose to sin, and was given an allotment of time by God to preserve his soul. He failed to do that and died in a state of mortal sin. God let him die in his sin because He knew the man had a bad will and would squander the time he was given to lead a life of holiness, so He allowed him to die a sudden death in that state.

    It's the same as those who are never given the Gospel and die in original sin and their natural sins. God knows they are of bad will and therefore they do not receive the Gospel. If they were of good will, God will find a way to provide them with the means necessary to be baptized and provided what is necessary for salvation, either miraculously or practically.

    And so it is with the dead member. He has all the means provided him to be saved, neglected them, and in his bad will fell into hell when his time came.

    I have a really hard time with the concept of someone in unrepented mortal sin being able to save their soul by being martyred for Christ, either actively or passively.

    Think about it --- you have someone who has stubbornly persisted for years in a mortal sin, let's say living in an invalid marriage (and it is not a Josephite "brother and sister" union), dealing meth, running a whorehouse, what have you.  There comes a moment when they are called upon to die for the Faith.  They think "oh, great, this'll work, I'll get to save my soul by giving my life for Christ" --- "yes, but are you sorry for that mortal sin you've been living in, if you were allowed to live, would you be willing to give it up?" --- "well, no, but here, I'm offering my life for Christ, doesn't that 'no greater love' thing kick in?".  No, they're not going to be able to commit that sin, or any other sin, anymore, because they'll be dead, but if they're unrepentant of their mortal sins they've been committing up to this point, well, the answer should be obvious.

    I can't see how that person could possibly be saved.  We are not Muslims who believe we go straight to heaven if our blood is shed in the name of Allah.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #6 on: June 25, 2022, 07:08:07 PM »
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  • We are not Muslims who believe we go straight to heaven if our blood is shed in the name of Allah.

    I think there is a school of thought among some Catholics that this is in fact the case.  I don't believe that martyrdom can overcome when someone is in a state of unrepented mortal sin, as if it were an ex opere operato effect, as has often been (IMO wrongly) characterized by theologians.  Nor do I believe that passive martyrdom has much of an effect, for the same reason, that I believe the effects of remission of punishment due to sin come from the ex opere operantis heroic virtue of martyrdom (when there is true martyrdom).

    That also leads into the notion that Baptism of Blood can make one enter a state of grace who isn't already there.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #7 on: June 25, 2022, 07:57:10 PM »
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  • "The Lord keepeth all them that love him; but all the wicked he will destroy." -Ps. 144:20

    Those who ultimately love God, and avoid mortal sin and utilize the sacrament of Penance, will be justified either in this life through the Dark Night or in the next through Purgatory. If you die in mortal sin, you are among the wicked and have no place in Him, and will be destroyed. No "baptism of blood" can do that if you're not disposed for it.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #8 on: June 25, 2022, 08:21:52 PM »
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  • I have a really hard time with the concept of someone in unrepented mortal sin being able to save their soul by being martyred for Christ, either actively or passively.

    Think about it --- you have someone who has stubbornly persisted for years in a mortal sin, let's say living in an invalid marriage (and it is not a Josephite "brother and sister" union), dealing meth, running a whorehouse, what have you.  There comes a moment when they are called upon to die for the Faith.  They think "oh, great, this'll work, I'll get to save my soul by giving my life for Christ" --- "yes, but are you sorry for that mortal sin you've been living in, if you were allowed to live, would you be willing to give it up?" --- "well, no, but here, I'm offering my life for Christ, doesn't that 'no greater love' thing kick in?".  No, they're not going to be able to commit that sin, or any other sin, anymore, because they'll be dead, but if they're unrepentant of their mortal sins they've been committing up to this point, well, the answer should be obvious.

    I can't see how that person could possibly be saved.  We are not Muslims who believe we go straight to heaven if our blood is shed in the name of Allah.
    Like the priest of September 11th, 2001.  He did a heroic act but is he a saint if he was living in mortal sin before he died?  Or maybe he repented from his mortal sins and was living a chaste life?  



    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #9 on: June 25, 2022, 09:34:28 PM »
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  • "The Lord keepeth all them that love him; but all the wicked he will destroy." -Ps. 144:20

    Those who ultimately love God, and avoid mortal sin and utilize the sacrament of Penance, will be justified either in this life through the Dark Night or in the next through Purgatory. If you die in mortal sin, you are among the wicked and have no place in Him, and will be destroyed. No "baptism of blood" can do that if you're not disposed for it.

    Quite agreed.  I do not share the "school of thought" to which Ladislaus referred.  To think "my martyrdom will cancel out all of my sins, even unrepented ones" is cheek-by-jowl with the popular notion that "my good acts will outweigh my bad ones".  It doesn't work that way.  One unrepented mortal sin, even if you are otherwise the most morally upright person in the world, makes you liable for eternal damnation.

    I have been around long enough, and have seen the outward acts and dispositions of people of all degrees of virtue and sinfulness, that I can tell when someone is just about to crack up from the cognitive dissonance of their lives.  I saw it in Nancy Peℓσѕι yesterday.  She was a train wreck.  Did anyone else watch her speech?  Eyes darting, hesitating, couldn't find her words.  Biden was much the same.  There he was, pleading with everyone to see why abortion would be acceptable in case of rape or incest.  He's fighting a battle deep within himself, desperately wants to balance his Catholic Faith with abortion choice, but there's "just something there" that tells you his head is about to explode.  It's working on him.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #10 on: June 26, 2022, 12:39:58 PM »
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  • This sounds a lot like an aspect of purgatory on earth to me. We often hear it said that the worst suffering for the souls in purgatory is the fact that they desire only God but cannot unite with Him yet because of their imperfections. It would seem that this longing for God purifies the souls both in this world and or in the next. It seems to me that merely speaking of purgatory as a place of temporal punishment to make satisfaction to God's justice is insufficient. I am under the impression that purgatory has a duel purpose... 1.) To make satisfaction to God's justice (punishment) and 2.) To complete the process of sanctification (purification/perfection). Would this be accurate? Do these two reasons go hand in hand? When we have masses offered or other suffrages for the departed souls does this just make satisfaction for their sins or speed up the purification process or both? Why the focus on temporal punishment over sanctification?
    For #1, the souls in purgatory can do nothing to help themselves - the time for that was during their life. So no matter what they do in purgatory, even longing for God can avail them nothing. The Church Suffering spend all of their time satisfying the Divine Justice through their suffering the pains of purgatory until God decides their debt is fully paid: "Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." Mat. 5:26

    For #2, Not sure if this is what you meant, but IMO their sanctification entails first the purging of their attachment to sin which is a part of the vestiges or remains of sin, through their present sufferings.

    Once the vestiges of sins are purged, then the level or amount (if that makes any sense) of sanctifying grace they  died in, is the same level or amount of sanctification that they enter heaven with. This presumes of course that some are holier than others at their death, which is why...."In my Father's house there are many mansions..." John 14:2

    All I am sure of is that I do not want to go to purgatory at all because the pains are the same pains suffered by the damned in hell, except you know that some day it will end.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #11 on: June 26, 2022, 02:21:39 PM »
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  • For #1, the souls in purgatory can do nothing to help themselves - the time for that was during their life. So no matter what they do in purgatory, even longing for God can avail them nothing. The Church Suffering spend all of their time satisfying the Divine Justice through their suffering the pains of purgatory until God decides their debt is fully paid: "Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing." Mat. 5:26

    For #2, Not sure if this is what you meant, but IMO their sanctification entails first the purging of their attachment to sin which is a part of the vestiges or remains of sin, through their present sufferings.

    Once the vestiges of sins are purged, then the level or amount (if that makes any sense) of sanctifying grace they  died in, is the same level or amount of sanctification that they enter heaven with. This presumes of course that some are holier than others at their death, which is why...."In my Father's house there are many mansions..." John 14:2

    All I am sure of is that I do not want to go to purgatory at all because the pains are the same pains suffered by the damned in hell, except you know that some day it will end.
    I guess another question is does a soul increase in sanctifying grace in purgatory or no? 

    I do agree though that depending on the progress made on earth the soul enjoys a higher or lesser degree of glory in heaven. I'm reminded of the example of the thimble and the big cup. Both are full to the brim, but one is bigger than the other to begin with. they're both full but one has a greater capacity. 
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #12 on: June 26, 2022, 05:21:27 PM »
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  • I guess another question is does a soul increase in sanctifying grace in purgatory or no?

    Theological consensus is no, they cannot increase in their degree of sanctifying grace after departing from this life.

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #13 on: June 26, 2022, 09:01:40 PM »
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  • The same reason the angels have a fixed will; we do once we depart life. Also the same reason praying a rosary and leaving flowers at Mary's feet does not increase her essential glory.

    There are a number of problems with things changing outside time. While Purgatory is not outside time in a strict sense our will is fixed at the Particular Judgment.
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
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    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Aspects of Purgatory
    « Reply #14 on: June 26, 2022, 09:05:34 PM »
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  • Theological consensus is no, they cannot increase in their degree of sanctifying grace after departing from this life.
    At least while the person is alive on earth, I believe it is principally sanctifying grace which sanctifies the soul, correct? So, in purgatory something altogether different finishes the process of sanctification? You'll read from St. Catherine of Genoa and others the fire in purgatory is the fire of God's love or something similar. I've heard sanctifying grace referred to as a share of God's life. Could this be this fire maybe? Is the process of sanctification in purgatory done differently than on earth? My thoughts seem to be close to the eastern doctrine of Theosis, althought they also believe that this process never ends for all eternity where I have believed that eventually the soul is "perfect" and then united with God.
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!