Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?  (Read 27401 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2021, 04:05:41 PM »
There's also different kinds of papal doubts that Trads can have.  When one says "papal doubt" that does not mean only 1 thing.
1.  Spiritual Authority - All Trads implicitly doubt the spiritual authority claimed by V2 popes to do and say the unorthodox.
2.  Material Office - Being a Trad does not necessarily mean one doubts that a pope holds the material office.
3.  Spiritual Office - Being a Trad does not necessarily mean one doubts that a pope still has (in potential) spiritual authority.  Some say (i.e. Sedes) that his spiritual office is lost completely, once he utters heresy or abuses his spiritual authority (#1).  Others (i.e. Fr Chazal) say that his spiritual office is impounded due to material error, but could be regained by conversion.
.
The loss of spiritual authority seems to be agreed upon by all Trads.  #2 and #3 are debated.

Well, there are many permutations on this.  In my position, it's as a bit simpler:

MAJOR:  the Church cannot defect in her Mission
MINOR 1:  V2 and NOM present a wholesale destruction of faith and worship in the Church (followed by morals under Bergoglio)
MINOR 2: this degree of destruction would constitute the Church's defection from her Mission
CONCLUSION:  this degree of destruction could not have emanated from the legitimate authority of the Church.

As far as sede-this, sede-that, or sede-the-other-thing, the legitimacy of the Popes is by far a secondary matter that I'm not concerned about.  If someone wants to believe that Montini was replaced by a double, more power to them.  If you want to side with Bellarmine or with Cajetan, or come up with your own, it's all within the range of Catholic opinion only.  I don't really care.

MINOR 1 is generally what I hold to define whether someone is a Traditional Catholic and why I exclude the likes of XavierSem.  If you deny MINOR 1, then you need to make haste back to full communion with the V2 hierarchs.

MINOR 2 is in fact my major point of contention with modern R&R.  +Lefebvre agrees with this Minor, but some modern R&R don't.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2021, 04:09:26 PM »

Quote
1) You are projecting.  I have no doubts regarding the legitimacy of the conciliar popes;
2) Hyperbole: Lefebvre explained that when he called conciliar Rome schismatic, he didn’t mean it in a strictly theological/canonical way, but only insofar as their teachings often represent a break from the past.  He specifically-in the same article- requested people like you stop twisting his thoughts;

Then you are doubting one aspect of the V2 papacy - the spiritual authority they claim to have (i.e. just as +ABL defined it - unorthodox teachings).


Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2021, 04:10:58 PM »
Quote
In my position, it's as a bit simpler:

It's an over-simplification, which makes it difficult for everyone to accept.  Theology is often clearer, once you dive into the details.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

  • Supporter
Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2021, 07:41:17 PM »


That a few schismatic sede bishops (?) reject that peaceful and universal assent is no more relevant that Lutheran or Old Catholic bishops doing so.


Let’s trust you implement the same criteria when you throw around the word “schismatic” when you talk about certain bishops who were consecrated without a papal mandate from the man whom they held to be pope. 

Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2021, 07:43:59 PM »
If I were a priest, I would offer Mass “una cuм famulo tuo papa nostro” but then leave out the name, expressing sededoubtism.

Antichrist "Paul VI" loved the home made mass of Bugnini.