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Author Topic: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?  (Read 27539 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #90 on: May 05, 2021, 06:08:14 AM »
Sure, that would not have been sufficient had Drew bothered to produce a single theological source on the subject to challenge the CE.  He had absolutely nothing but his wishful thinking.
You are so full of baloney. I mean really full of it.

Drew sited many theological sources, the following sources he referenced are in just the handful of his posts in the first 8 pages of the 76 page thread I looked at, certainly he quoted dozens more in that thread alone....

Drew's theological sources in the first 8 pages....

St. Thomas
Rev. Joseph Pohle, who sites...
Pope Zosimus
Fr. Hesse
St. Alphonsus
St. Cornelius a Lapide

Want to know how many theological sources you bothered to quote in the first 8 pages? ZERO.
That's right, none!

As is typical for you, you quote your own ideas, beliefs and opinions as your theological sources all the time - while claiming your opponents never quote any sources.




 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #91 on: May 05, 2021, 07:35:45 AM »
So there is a subjective element to it ... similar to what would have been the case during the Great Western schism.  If I was certain that my guy was the pope, I probably shouldn't attend a Mass una-cuм one of (what I believed to be) the Anti-popes.  But if I was uncertain, not sure about, which one was the actual Pope, I don't see that it would be a sin to attend any of the Masses for a decent reason.

Those citations about dropping the name being schismatic assume that the person recognizes that the man is the pope, but refuses to name him; that would constitute a schismatic act.

I hold that we're in a time analogous to that of the Great Western schism, where there's less-than-absolute certainty regarding the identity of the Pope.  Let's not get into the Universal Acceptance issue here, since we've had many threads on the subject.

Assume, for the sake or argument, that there's a serious doubt about the identity of the true pope, under those circuмstances, would it be wrong to assist at either una-cuм or non-una-cuм Masses?  I don't believe so.  I think you could go either way.  Even if you're a sedeprivationist, you could put the name in there given that he holds the office of the papacy, even if he lacks the formal authority on account of heresy, etc.

Given this situation, if I were a priest, I would keep the phrase "una cuм famulo tuo papa nostro" but then not insert the name, as a profession of formal intention to be in Communion with the papacy, even if there's doubt about who that is at the moment.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #92 on: May 05, 2021, 07:50:11 AM »
If the Priest is reasonable, we can make allowance for the difficulties for his conscience. This is what +ABL did, and some wrongly portray +ABL as almost sede because of that. No, that's wrong. +ABL made allowance for the sedes if they would be reasonable. Those who proved unreasonable were expelled in 1983. +Sanborn's position, and those like it, as expressed by that Priest under him, is clearly extremist in the extreme. It is not open to reason. There is hardly anything that can be reasonably done in such cases. If the Priest is open to reason, he will accept praying for the Pope for the sake of those who assist at his Mass believing it to be una cuм the Pope.

Sedevacantism wasn't the primary issue with The Nine.  In fact, I was told by a couple of The Nine that not all of them were actually sedevacantist at the time of their expulsion, and the Nine didn't have issues with those who did offer Mass "una cuм".  Primarily it had to do with NO priests cooperating with the SSPX without being conditionally ordained, with the SSPX acceptance of NO annulments, and the imposition of the 1962 Missal (along with the 1955 Holy Week rites).  Recall that this was at the time where Archbishop Lefebvre was optimistic about relations with JP2 (after Paul VI was gone) and so he was in a more conciliatory spirit.  So the 1980-1984 +Lefebvre actually had a position very similar to that of the more recent one of +Fellay.

That's why I get frustrated with the neo-SSPX vs. Resistance battling about who represents the TRUE spirit of +Lefebvre.  They both do and they both don't.  It depends on whether you're talking about the 1980-1984 +Lefebvre (more like +Fellay) or the 1976-8 & 1984-1991 +Lefebvre (more like the Resistance).

Similarly, +Lefebvre was more anti-sedevacantist from 1980-1984, but then came a hair's breadth from going sedevacantist himself in 1976 (suspension by Paul VI) and then again in 1986 (Assisi).

There simply was no monolithic Archbishop Lefebvre.  Like many Traditional Catholics, he changed his mind and his attitude from time to time.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #93 on: May 05, 2021, 07:57:32 AM »
So there is a subjective element to it ... similar to what would have been the case during the Great Western schism.  If I was certain that my guy was the pope, I probably shouldn't attend a Mass una-cuм one of (what I believed to be) the Anti-popes.  But if I was uncertain, not sure about, which one was the actual Pope, I don't see that it would be a sin to attend any of the Masses for a decent reason.

I might even go a step further.  Applying the principles of probabilism (or semi-probabilism) [St. Alphonsus was first a probabilist and then after his position was criticized, he modified it somewhat], it would likely be morally licit to attend the Mass of any of these popes that you thought could possibly be the Pope.  In other words, if you considered it possible, even remotely possible, that one of these other guys was the pope, you could licitly assist at their Masses.  "Probable" in Latin didn't mean, like the current English, that "it's most likely to be true", but rather that something was "possibly true".  That's why in that one passage on explicit faith, St. Alphonsus referred to one position being MORE "probable" than the other.

Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #94 on: May 05, 2021, 08:02:11 AM »
I hold that we're in a time analogous to that of the Great Western schism, where there's less-than-absolute certainty regarding the identity of the Pope.  Let's not get into the Universal Acceptance issue here, since we've had many threads on the subject.

...

Given this situation, if I were a priest, I would keep the phrase "una cuм famulo tuo papa nostro" but then not insert the name, as a profession of formal intention to be in Communion with the papacy, even if there's doubt about who that is at the moment.

This is crazy nonsense:

You don’t want to get into the universal consent argument, because it highlights just how crazy your homemade theory is:

Today’s situation could not possibly be more opposite from the GWS (where large chunks of prelates favored competing claimants, whereas today NONE do): Instead of “two popes for one Church,” we have “one pope for two churches.”

Therefore, there is no pretext for doubting the legitimacy of the pope (we have universal consent), and consequently, there is no pretext for omitting Francis from the una cuм.

Moreover, in the GWS, supporters of the contending claimants would have inserted one name or the other, whereas you are suggesting inserting nothing except an illicit distortion of the rubrics referencing unity with the papacy rather than a pope (which Fr. Cekada rightly calls stupid, and a violation of the rubrics), all because you subjectively doubt.

It doesn’t get any more Protestant than that.

You should be banned from this forum for deceiving simpler minds.