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Author Topic: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?  (Read 27409 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2021, 09:26:20 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on May 04, 2021, 09:06:14 AM
This is nonsense and serves to show how bankrupt your sensus fidei has become.  It's absolutely imperative that every Catholic come to terms in his own conscience with why they refuse submission and subjection to the Roman Pontiff.  You of all people should be intimately acquainted with the dogma that there can be no salvation outside of subjection to the Supreme Pontiff.  Your lip service of "Yeah, he's a real pope" doesn't suffice.
This is the typical false perception that nearly all sedes, including yourself, have come to believe, and which I explained the correction in my previous post.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2021, 09:46:19 AM »
Quote
Pax, you are bending over backwards to normalize or naturalize, doubting of the popes validity. FYI, those who claim the  position of sedeism admit they have very little to no doubt at all that the guy is not the pope - THIS is the normal or natural,  even expected result of having serious doubts as regards the popes validity. It really is not so complicated.
It is absolutely complex.  For example, give me 50 sedes and i'll give you probably 50 different answers on the papal question.  
.
1.  Was John23 validly elected?  If no, why not?  Because of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?  Because of Siri?  Because of the changes to the 62 missal?  Because Pius XII wasn't valid?  etc, etc
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2.  If John23 was elected validly, when did he commit heresy and lose the papacy?  (insert 20 possible heresies here...)

3.  Same questions for Paul VI, JPII, Benedict, except some added confusion:
4.  Was it due to new-order rites?  Or Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?  V2?  New Mass?  etc, etc  (insert 5,000 possible heresies here...)
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Even when sedes say "he's not the pope", they don't agree on why.  Thus, the number of doubts is very great.  It's not just about a valid ɛƖɛctıon.
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A lot of trads have no idea and couldn't care less if the pope is the pope, their main goal is to strive to maintain the faith in this mess, and for them,  deciding the status of the pope or being the least bit concerned or curious as to his validity plays zero part in maintaining the faith.
I agree with Fr Wathen that the papal question is not the job of, or the responsibility of laity and simple clerics.  
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Then there are trads like myself who have zero doubt that the pope is indeed the legitimate pope, and in striving to maintain  the faith, adhere to the Highest Principle in the Church, namely: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." (Fr. Hesse) and using that as the guide that it is, even if we are all completely wrong about the popes validity, so what?
As a layman, I agree you are allowed to take this stance, but...you also can't ignore the theological history and pretend that there are not questions to be answered.  You can't debate that "it doesn't matter".  If you choose to have a simple view of things, go for it.  For those that want to research the issues (i.e. Fr Chazal's book), you should stay out of the debate.  You can't enforce your simple view on others, just as they can't force their "doubts" on you.  It's an open-ended debate.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2021, 10:07:41 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 04, 2021, 09:46:19 AM
It is absolutely complex.  For example, give me 50 sedes and i'll give you probably 50 different answers on the papal question.  
.
1.  Was John23 validly elected?  If no, why not?  Because of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?  Because of Siri?  Because of the changes to the 62 missal?  Because Pius XII wasn't valid?  etc, etc
.
2.  If John23 was elected validly, when did he commit heresy and lose the papacy?  (insert 20 possible heresies here...)

3.  Same questions for Paul VI, JPII, Benedict, except some added confusion:
4.  Was it due to new-order rites?  Or Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?  V2?  New Mass?  etc, etc  (insert 5,000 possible heresies here...)
.
Even when sedes say "he's not the pope", they don't agree on why.  Thus, the number of doubts is very great.  It's not just about a valid ɛƖɛctıon.

As a layman, I agree you are allowed to take this stance, but...you also can't ignore the theological history and pretend that there are not questions to be answered.  You can't debate that "it doesn't matter".  If you choose to have a simple view of things, go for it.  For those that want to research the issues (i.e. Fr Chazal's book), you should stay out of the debate.  You can't enforce your simple view on others, just as they can't force their "doubts" on you.  It's an open-ended debate.
For all of this, it is mainly because reality is denied, which in turn fuels their confusion. The rest of the confusion is mainly due to attempting to apply various different hypotheses and theories - while at the same time denying reality.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2021, 10:40:48 AM »
Some people are super confused about the papacy and become Sedes due to emotional reaction.  Some who delve into the papal question rationally look at the problem (i.e. Fr Chazal).  Again, you're just making a generalization about 1,000s of people and expecting everyone else to accept your generalization.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #74 on: May 04, 2021, 11:13:06 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 04, 2021, 10:40:48 AM
Some people are super confused about the papacy and become Sedes due to emotional reaction.  Some who delve into the papal question rationally look at the problem (i.e. Fr Chazal).  Again, you're just making a generalization about 1,000s of people and expecting everyone else to accept your generalization.
I don't expect people to accept my generalization, I do think however that if they look into it at all, then they need to look into it with faith and reality, if they do this without including so called theories, then they will conclude on their own that the conciliar popes are indeed popes who are heretics. After that is out of the way, the matter is closed, they can then strive to live their lives as good and faithful Catholics.  
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