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Author Topic: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?  (Read 28734 times)

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Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2021, 09:19:59 AM »
Logic 101, Sean.  YOU would call +Lefebvre a heretic.  I on the other hand assert (and back up with citations) that +Lefebvre did NOT consider the legitimacy of the papal claimants to be dogmatic fact, but rather that they were DOUBTFUL.  In your deliberate mischaracterization of +Lefebvre as a dogmatic sedeplenist, it is YOU who logically pain him as a heretic.
Logic 101, Lad:
Your latest flail adds another reason why your illogic must again indict Lefebvre:
He denies that which all approved theologians declare:
A universally accepted pope is a dogmatic fact.
Only sedes believe otherwise.

Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2021, 09:22:50 AM »
Lad, you allowed yourself to slide into a state of perpetual and dogmatic doubt as regards the validity of popes. One of the results of this malady is that you see in +ABL that which was never there, then project this non-existent, even false image of him as a means to justify and promote your own "dogmatic doubtism" - as if that's the safest course, which in reality is a very dangerous course since as you must know, God hates "middle of the roaders" i.e dogmatic doubters.

The good +ABL dealt directly and personally, even face to face, off and on for many years with PVI and JP2 - if he had any doubt about the validity of the popes, you need to understand and accept that he would not have left anyone guessing his position in the matter. He would have come right out and told all his flock along with everyone else in the world who already knew why he was in the spotlight, exactly and in no uncertain terms that officially, he doubted the validity of the popes, and also that this is his SSPX's new position. We would expect nothing less of +ABL  if he held to your position.

    

  

  
This^^^
The dogmatic doubtist 


Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2021, 09:25:55 AM »
Absolutely false equivalency here. This correction was to conform with Latin practice, the insertion of the Pope into the canon is foreign to the tradition and had nothing to do with the schism.
Greek practice is the priest remembered his own bishop in the canon, the bishop remembers the bishops who he is in communion with. This was only the practice of Greeks the Slavs following Greek tradition did commemorate the bishop/Pope
Interesting post; I’ll look into this.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2021, 09:36:20 AM »
Are you incapable of reading the English language?  It's right there in black and white where he says that it's quite possible that the V2 papal claimants have been illegitimate.  Obviously he doesn't use the term "sede-doubtism" ... which is something that I myself coined here a few years ago.  Nevertheless, he articulates his DOUBTS about their legitimacy, which is all sede-doubtism is about.  It's a rejection of BOTH dogmatic sedeplenism AND dogmatic sedevacantism, recognizing that this is all based on private judgment and that only the Church can resolve the matter with the necessary certainty of faith to render ANYTHING "dogmatic".  And that is exactly what +Lefebvre did, defer to the Church while personally entertaining it as a possibility.
You do not consider the times during those days of his very few quotes you want to use to support something +ABL never supported. The heretical things that we have all been conditioned to over the years were relatively new and always shocking  when he made those passing remarks.

In those days, while you were being raised in the anti-Church like nearly everyone else, nearly all trads questioned the pope's validity, heck, a lot, mabey even most trads - and even other people believed the pope was kidnapped and replaced with a communist double, some believed the pope was purposely somehow kept in the dark about all that was happening. There was so dam much confusion and chaos back then that for +ABL to remark that there is a possibility that the pope might be invalid was nothing more than a few passing thoughts in the sea of scandals, in which the good archbishop was immersed up to his neck fighting the good fight - fighting not only the corrupted church authorities, but also including his own priests from his own seminary.

You need to either be hot or cold, sede or not sede, you cannot go on with your dogmatic sede-doubtism, because that only leads to further confusion in this matter, and it spreads to other matters of the faith.  


Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Are there any anti una cuм people on cathinfo?
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2021, 11:12:06 AM »

Quote
if he had any doubt about the validity of the popes, you need to understand and accept that he would not have left anyone guessing his position in the matter.
A doubt is not really a "position", which is probably why +ABL didn't feel the need to advertise it.
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Quote
He would have come right out and told all his flock along with everyone else in the world who already knew why he was in the spotlight, exactly and in no uncertain terms that officially, he doubted the validity of the popes, and also that this is his SSPX's new position. We would expect nothing less of +ABL  if he held to your position.

No, totally disagree.  +ABL was concentrating on creating priests, spreading the Faith, and informing catholics of the dangers of V2.  Exactly what EVERY traditional catholic and cleric should be doing.
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To insert the controversy of the papacy is not only worthless, but it's also a distraction.  I firmly believe that devil started this controversy, this obsession with the papacy, to divide Tradition and to distract people from living the faith and spreading it.  And boy, did he succeed!
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Only the Church can rule on the status of the pope, as history has shown time and again.  At no point in the many papal controversies of times past was the question decided during the crisis, but only afterwards, when things calmed down.  Our times are no different.
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Quote
You need to either be hot or cold, sede or not sede, you cannot go on with your dogmatic sede-doubtism, because that only leads to further confusion in this matter, and it spreads to other matters of the faith.

No.  The question of the papacy (outside of the College of Cardinals) is, by definition, a theory.  Outside of the Cardinals, no catholic - however saintly, however knowledgeable of theology - has any status, any authority or any power to answer the question.  Thus, any and all views on the papal question are opinions only...until the Church decides.  Any catholic with any humility must admit he is a "doubtist", for he cannot say with any certainty, this or that, because it's not his decision, nor his Church.