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Author Topic: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?  (Read 3007 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
« Reply #45 on: July 21, 2020, 02:12:30 PM »
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  • While I do not support Ibranyi in most things, this is the most thorough treatment of the subject that I've found.

    http://www.johnthebaptist.us/jbw_english/docuмents/books/rjmi/br45_ministers_intention.pdf

    Joseph Pohle writes several pages about "The Right Intention":

    Joseph Pohle: The sacraments : a dogmatic treatise[/quote]

    Offline In Principio

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #46 on: July 21, 2020, 02:30:43 PM »
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  • So, given the Mormons use and have always used the Trinitarian formula (and water), does it matter that their belief of said Trinity is different?  If, up until 2000 or so, the Church accepted these baptisms as valid, why wouldn't these same principles apply?  If they don't, wouldn't that mean that the Church allowed invalid baptisms? And why would we, as Traditionalists, want to accept the decision of the Vatican II Sect on this matter?
    From what I understand, Mormon baptisms are considered invalid due to a defective form. Mormons have made it clear that the words they use, such as in the Trinitarian formula, have a substantially different meaning than what the Church means by those words, and this issue of semantics results in a defective form.
     "The faithful should obey the apostolic advice not to know more than is necessary, but to know in moderation." - Pope Clement XIII, In Dominico Agro (1761) 


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #47 on: July 21, 2020, 02:47:50 PM »
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  • After this Ibranyi guy, here a serious Catholic thelogian:


    Quote from: Joseph Pohle: THE SACRAMENTS - A DOGMATIC TREATISE
    Thesis II : A merely external intention in the sense of Catharinus is not sufficient for the validity of a Sacrament.

    This proposition may be technically qualified as communis.

    [...]

    The question at issue may be briefly formulated thus: Does a minister who has the intention of performing the external rite, but withholds his interior assent from the mind of the Church, validly confer a Sacrament?

    Catharinus and his followers answer this question affirmatively.

    a) Though their opinion has never been directly and formally condemned, it runs counter to a number of conciliary and papal decisions.

    Innocent III demanded of the Waldenses that they subscribe to a profession of faith containing these words in regard to the Holy Mass: "For which celebration three things are necessary, as we believe, namely, a certain person, i. e. the priest, ... those solemn words [of institution], ... and the honest intention of the one who pronounces them." Can he who interiorly repudiates what he externally does, be said to have an "honest intention"? Note, too, that the Pope mentions the "fidelis intentio" as something independent of and separable from the act of uttering the words of consecration. This last-mentioned point is brought out more clearly in the following question, addressed to certain suspected Wiclifites and Hussites by command of Martin V: "Does he believe that a bad priest, employing the proper matter and form, and having the intention of doing what the Church does, truly consecrates, truly absolves, truly baptizes, truly confers the other Sacraments?" He who employs the proper matter and form, manifestly has the external intention postulated by Catharinus and means to perform the external rite in the prescribed way. But this is not sufficient, or else the Pope would not add: "and having the intention of doing what the Church does." Eugene IV in his famous Decretum pro Armenis (1439), besides the putting together of matter and form (in which the intentio mere externa of Catharinus is sufficiently guaranteed), expressly demands the intentio faciendi quod facit Ecclesia as a distinct conditio sine qua non of validity. Now this intention, in addition to the external performance of the sacramental rite, coincides with the internal intention which we defend. It is evidently this interior intention that the Council of Trent means when it commands the minister of a Sacrament to do what the Church does. A minister who, while carefully observing the prescribed rite, would withhold interior assent to the mind of the Church, could have no other intention than to play the hypocrite. The correctness of this interpretation may be judged from the Council's declaration as to the right intention of confessors: "... The penitent ought not so to confide in his own personal faith as to think that even though there be ... no intention on the part of the priest of acting seriously and absolving truly he is nevertheless ... absolved, ... nor would he be otherwise than most careless of his own salvation who, knowing that a priest absolved him in jest, should not carefully seek for another who would act in earnest." In this passage the Holy Synod mentions two separate and distinct intentions: that of "acting seriously" and that of "absolving truly." These two intentions are either substantially identical or they are separate and distinct. If they are identical, the second phrase is merely an explanation of the first, and the intention of acting seriously coincides with that of absolving truly, which latter is evidently an interior intention. If they are not identical, then the intention of acting seriously (which is precisely Catharinus intentio mere externa), is not sufficient for valid absolution, because there is further required the intention of absolving truly. In either case the merely external intention is insufficient.

    The opinion of Catharinus sustained a severe blow by the condemnation pronounced by Alexander VIII (1690) against the proposition that "Baptism is valid if conferred by a minister who observes the whole external rite and form of the Sacrament, but interiorly in his heart says: I do not intend to do what the Church does." This proposition was extracted from the writings of the Belgian theologian Farvacques, who was an ardent champion of the intentio mere externa, and hence it is perhaps not too much to say that Catharinus theory stands condemned.


    b) The arguments alleged in favor of the sufficiency of a merely external intention are inconclusive.

    The laudable desire manifested by our opponents to safeguard the objective efficacy of the Sacraments against the wiles of unworthy men and to give the faithful as great a certainty as possible of receiving the sacramental graces, must not lead us to overlook the necessity of an interior intention. Two elements, the one objective, the other subjective, enter into the composition of every Sacrament: the external rite and the interior intention. No Sacrament is complete without them. Nor is it safe to extol the former to the prejudice of the latter. It is not pertinent to compare the external rite to a fire which, laid to dry wood, at once kindles it, even when there is no intention of arson on the part of him who brings about the contact. On the other hand, Divine Providence has seen fit to entrust the administration of the Sacraments to human beings. We must therefore be satisfied with such moral certitude as can generally be had.

    https://archive.org/details/sacraments01pohluoft/page/n191/mode/2up

    Joseph Pohle also writes about the history of the question.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #48 on: July 21, 2020, 02:55:10 PM »
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  • From what I understand, Mormon baptisms are considered invalid due to a defective form. Mormons have made it clear that the words they use, such as in the Trinitarian formula, have a substantially different meaning than what the Church means by those words, and this issue of semantics results in a defective form.
    Actually, they screw it up not with the formula, because the words are absolutely correct, but they say the words, then after they say the words, then comes the dunking. Amazing. They must do it wrong on purpose, there is simply no other way to invalidate such a simple thing.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #49 on: July 21, 2020, 02:58:43 PM »
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  • After this Ibranyi guy, here a serious Catholic thelogian:

    Yes, all part of the same theological trend toward subjectivism which undermined EENS dogma and ultimately leads to Vatican II.

    BTW, I cited Ibrany because he cites all the primary sources, not because he's a theologian.  You asked for sources, and they're all in there ... if you want to take the time to read it.

    Neither Ibranyi, nor Catholic Encyclopedia, nor I claim that this is not currently the "common" opinion.  Just like EENS-rejection picked up traction during the same timeframe and suddenly be came "common".  I am arguing that it's the WRONG opinion.  And the citation from Pope Leo XIII backs it up.


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #50 on: July 21, 2020, 08:35:08 PM »
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  • BTW, I cited Ibrany because he cites all the primary sources, not because he's a theologian.  You asked for sources, and they're all in there ... if you want to take the time to read it.

    Basically, that's not a problem with me. Sources never cause harm, and there are laymen who do better work than many a theologian.

    But Ibranyi is a disaster. He e.g. proposes that friendship is the intention (of some pagan who baptizes), as if friendship could serve as an intention at all. Friendship may be the reason why s.o. adopts an intention which he wouldn't adopt without the friendship. But friendship never is an intention. Based on such misuse of terms, he invites the reader to accept his strange ideas as proven. I stopped when I saw his anti-Catholic approach to accuse Pope Leo XIII of contradicting himself within a short paragraph, while at the same time showing that he simply doesn't understand what Leo said (details see my previous post on that topic).

    Then Ibranyi rejects the condemnation of the Holy Office of Pope Alexander VIII, factually giving as his reason that the condemnation is neither in accord with Ibranyi's opinion nor infallible.

    :jester: :jester: :jester:



    Yes, all part of the same theological trend toward subjectivism which undermined EENS dogma and ultimately leads to Vatican II.

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

    You reject a condemnation of the Holy Office of Alexander VIII, giving as the reason a pamphlet of that joker Ibranyi who misuses

    Quote
    The Precious Blood of Jesus Christ,
    The Grace of the God of the Holy Catholic Church,
    The Mediation of the Blessed Virgin Mary,
    Our Lady of Good Counsel and Crusher of Heretics,
    The Protection of Saint Joseph,
    Patriarch of the Holy Family,
    The Intercession of Saint Michael the Archangel

    to spread his rejection of the same Holy Office based on nothing but his personal dissent. And then you additionally accuse the Holy Office of Pope Alexander VIII of preparing the way for subjectivism.

    It's not about subjectivism. The reason, why there is no certainty has nothing to do with subjectivism. Let me quote Pohle again:

    Quote
    Divine Providence has seen fit to entrust the administration of the Sacraments to human beings. We must therefore be satisfied with such moral certitude as can generally be had.

    But even if the external-intention-thesis was true: You would have to trust your senses if you wanted to know that a particular dispensation of a sacrament was conferred validly, and trusting your senses, watching the procedure, may inspire more confidence, but doesn't yield metaphysical certitude, either.


    Conclusion: To convince me of your ideas you would have to start with a refutation of the given argumentation of Pohle.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #51 on: July 21, 2020, 09:27:04 PM »
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  • Speaking of traditional rites (not V2 rites), I don’t see how if someone follow the matter/form of baptism, then it’s not 100% valid.  There must be some details related to that Holy Office condemnation that are missing.  The private intention of the person performing the baptism is irrelevant.  If it matters, then no baptism is certain.  
    .
    Let’s not forget the Eucharistic miracles of times gone where some priests have doubted transubstantiation yet a small child saw Our Lord miraculously in the host, to rid the priest of his doubts.  Proper Rites = Church intention = valid.  
    .
    Only V2 rites can be said to lack full, clear intention which must be supplied by the priest (these new rites were re-written and designed such, so to cause confusion, increase invalidity and also that those demonic and communist “clerics” could avoid anything holy).

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #52 on: July 21, 2020, 09:31:50 PM »
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  • Speaking of traditional rites (not V2 rites), I don’t see how if someone follow the matter/form of baptism, then it’s not 100% valid.  There must be some details related to that Holy Office condemnation that are missing.  The private intention of the person performing the baptism is irrelevant.  If it matters, then no baptism is certain.  

    How can you say "The private intention of the person performing the baptism is irrelevant" when you have read this thread and at least now know that the Holy Office of Alexander VIII has condemned this idea? This was quoted and mentioned at least five times.

    Expectedly you don't see how, if you ignore what's been quoted in this thread.

    Yes, baptisms and other sacraments generally are not metaphysically certain, since ministers are human. This has been mentioned twice and you comment without reading what was said and quoted.

    You don't have to read other comments and quotes, but then, please do not wonder that you don't see.


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #53 on: July 21, 2020, 09:41:06 PM »
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  • Well if the private intention of the minister can make sacraments done by the books invalid, then nobody can ever know if they were even baptized or ever recieved the true Body of Christ or was really forgiven in confession. Also, then Lefebvre was never a priest and most of us are not receiving the true sacraments and a very large number of people throughout history were not receiving the sacraments due to unbelieving priests and infiltrators. Would Christ set up the sacraments in such a way where they could so easily be invalidated without anyone ever knowing? 
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #54 on: July 21, 2020, 09:58:21 PM »
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  • Quote
    How can you say "The private intention of the person performing the baptism is irrelevant" when you have read this thread and at least now know that the Holy Office of Alexander VIII has condemned this idea?

    Part of my post - There must be some details related to that Holy Office condemnation that are missing.
    .
    Did you miss this part of my post?  Or do you just like to argue instead of having a rational discussion?
    .
    I don't think it's wise to read one condemnation (i.e. a few sentences) and then say, "Welp, that's that.  No ifs, ands or buts."  We have to have that take-it-or-leave-it attitude with dogmas, but not with other areas of the Church.  Why was the condemnation enacted?  What were the problems going on?  Context matters.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #55 on: July 21, 2020, 10:03:26 PM »
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  • Part of my post - There must be some details related to that Holy Office condemnation that are missing.
    .
    Did you miss this part of my post?  Or do you just like to argue instead of having a rational discussion?
    .
    I don't think it's wise to read one condemnation (i.e. a few sentences) and then say, "Welp, that's that.  No ifs, ands or buts."  We have to have that take-it-or-leave-it attitude with dogmas, but not with other areas of the Church.  Why was the condemnation enacted?  What were the problems going on?  Context matters.

    I didn't miss that part of your post. But you missed to read theologians like Ludwig Ott or Joseph Pohle. Or Ladislaus, who said that he knows and doesn't reject the fact that the common opinion of theologians is what these say, and that the SSPX says the same. Did the Resistance clerics reject what the SSPX says?


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #56 on: July 21, 2020, 10:12:21 PM »
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  • Well if the private intention of the minister can make sacraments done by the books invalid, then nobody can ever know if they were even baptized or ever recieved the true Body of Christ or was really forgiven in confession.

    That's consistent with the fact that nobody can know with more than mere moral certainty that he or anyone else is one of the elect, anyway.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #57 on: July 21, 2020, 10:21:57 PM »
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  • Why was the condemnation enacted?  What were the problems going on?  Context matters.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #58 on: July 21, 2020, 10:25:24 PM »
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  • Why was the condemnation enacted?  What were the problems going on?  Context matters.

    Read Pohle. See the link I posted earlier. He answers your question. The condemned proposition was of a Belgian theologian. I can't remember French names. Starts with F, Foucxyz or something.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #59 on: July 21, 2020, 10:28:01 PM »
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  • Farvacques is the name.