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Author Topic: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?  (Read 2970 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
« on: July 17, 2020, 07:54:35 PM »
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    • Hello everyone one of my online friends was talking with me and he told that he knows a person who thinks NO baptisms are evil because it is called the "rite of Christian initiation" and because the ceremonies were changed, it might manifest an intention contrary to the Church and it might be invalid.
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    I recant many opinions on the crisis in the Church and moral theology that I have espoused on here from at least 2019-2021 don't take my postings from that time as well as 2022 possibly too seriously.

    Offline BTNYC

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #1 on: July 17, 2020, 08:00:39 PM »
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    • I have a vague feeling this subject may have been broached on this forum before...

    Sure would be nice if there were some, I don't know, "search" function available to us in order to find out.

    Oh well, wish into one hand, spit into the other...
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #2 on: July 17, 2020, 09:08:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on July 17, 2020, 07:54:35 PM
    Hello everyone one of my online friends was talking with me and he told that he knows a person who thinks NO baptisms are evil because it is called the "rite of Christian initiation" and because the ceremonies were changed, it might manifest an intention contrary to the Church and it might be invalid.

    Yes, in the NO all kinds of things are done in all kinds of ways, excepting following their own books.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #3 on: July 17, 2020, 09:11:21 PM »
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    • Initiation is not removal of original sin.
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    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #4 on: July 17, 2020, 09:33:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on July 17, 2020, 07:54:35 PM
    Hello everyone one of my online friends was talking with me and he told that he knows a person who thinks NO baptisms are evil because it is called the "rite of Christian initiation" and because the ceremonies were changed, it might manifest an intention contrary to the Church and it might be invalid.
    Matter, form, and intent are needed.  Basic baltimore catechism teaches this.  
    When in doubt, get conditionally baptized. 
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #5 on: July 17, 2020, 09:46:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Venantius0518 on July 17, 2020, 09:33:35 PM
    When in doubt, get conditionally baptized.

    I was baptized in the early 1960s, and I've had no specific reason to doubt the minister or the act. But, given the great apostasy revealed by the robber council, which certainly existed earlier already, I preferred to get conditionally baptized.

    Here's St. Pius X in 1899:



    At least three, maybe five of the priests put their right hand inside their cassock, signalling what freemasons call the "hidden hand of Jahbulon" gesture to clandestinely show their brother masons that they're part of that sect. Masons consider themselves to be that hidden hand, shaping world history.

    The photograph shows 24 clerics in 1899, at least 1/8 of which are freemasons. Assuming that masonry was executing the Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita since maybe 1850, and that the photograph is representative, and that the fraction of masons in the clerus was growing linearly, in 1950 1/4 of the clerus would be masons.
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    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #6 on: July 18, 2020, 12:09:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on July 17, 2020, 09:46:11 PM
    I was baptized in the early 1960s, and I've had no specific reason to doubt the minister or the act. But, given the great apostasy revealed by the robber council, which certainly existed earlier already, I preferred to get conditionally baptized.

    Here's St. Pius X in 1899:



    At least three, maybe five of the priests put their right hand inside their cassock, signalling what freemasons call the "hidden hand of Jahbulon" gesture to clandestinely show their brother masons that they're part of that sect. Masons consider themselves to be that hidden hand, shaping world history.

    The photograph shows 24 clerics in 1899, at least 1/8 of which are freemasons. Assuming that masonry was executing the Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita since maybe 1850, and that the photograph is representative, and that the fraction of masons in the clerus was growing linearly, in 1950 1/4 of the clerus would be masons.
    And today?  Half at least, or more.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #7 on: July 18, 2020, 12:29:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on July 17, 2020, 09:46:11 PM
    I was baptized in the early 1960s, and I've had no specific reason to doubt the minister or the act. But, given the great apostasy revealed by the robber council, which certainly existed earlier already, I preferred to get conditionally baptized.

    Here's St. Pius X in 1899:



    At least three, maybe five of the priests put their right hand inside their cassock, signalling what freemasons call the "hidden hand of Jahbulon" gesture to clandestinely show their brother masons that they're part of that sect. Masons consider themselves to be that hidden hand, shaping world history.

    The photograph shows 24 clerics in 1899, at least 1/8 of which are freemasons. Assuming that masonry was executing the Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita since maybe 1850, and that the photograph is representative, and that the fraction of masons in the clerus was growing linearly, in 1950 1/4 of the clerus would be masons.
    It could also be that they were French and wanted to express that national identity. 
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #8 on: July 18, 2020, 01:03:25 AM »
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    • Anyone, if they use the correct words and intends what the Church intends can validly baptize. At a minimum all that is necessary is for the minister to say, " Name I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." while pouring water over the head of the one who is being baptized. Even a Jєωιѕн rabbi or an Islamic Imam if they use the correct words while pouring the water and having the intention of doing what the Catholic Church intends can baptize validly. 
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #9 on: July 18, 2020, 07:01:22 AM »
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    • There’s no reason for positive doubt regarding the validity of the NO Rite of Baptism.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #10 on: July 18, 2020, 07:22:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 18, 2020, 07:01:22 AM
    There’s no reason for positive doubt regarding the validity of the NO Rite of Baptism.

    True. But there is doubt with respect to the intention of clerics of the Antichrist NO sect, as well as based on the fact that most of them hate their own books and rites and use home made prayers and formulae.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #11 on: July 18, 2020, 07:57:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 18, 2020, 07:01:22 AM
    There’s no reason for positive doubt regarding the validity of the NO Rite of Baptism.
    I agree with respect to the actual Rite.  However, if there is question whether an individual priest did it validly, I would go to a trusted traditional priest to discuss.  I suspect that for most Catholics they will not know the specifics because they were infants.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #12 on: July 18, 2020, 03:06:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on July 18, 2020, 07:57:56 AM
    I agree with respect to the actual Rite.  However, if there is question whether an individual priest did it validly, I would go to a trusted traditional priest to discuss.  I suspect that for most Catholics they will not know the specifics because they were infants.

    Yes, that's why I said the Rite.  NO presiders are notorious for looking at the Church's Rites as mere suggestions or rules of thumb and are fond of ad libing.  So, for instance, I could see one of them say, instead of "I baptize you ...", "I welcome you to the Christian community" or some other such nonsense.  Consequently, I don't believe it would necessarily be inappropriate to seek conditional Baptism.  In addition, the Rite is defective particularly with regard to the removal of the exorcisms.  So just as when an infant was given an emergency Baptism before Vatican II, the full rites were later supplied, so too someone Baptized Novus Ordo should have the ancillary rites administered.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #13 on: July 18, 2020, 03:07:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on July 18, 2020, 07:22:42 AM
    True. But there is doubt with respect to the intention of clerics of the Antichrist NO sect, as well as based on the fact that most of them hate their own books and rites and use home made prayers and formulae.

    I'm not a subscriber to the SSPX "intention" theology, and I believe that the intention to PERFORM the Rites of the Church suffices, the intention to DO what the Church does, even if the NO presbyter has no belief in or intention to confer the Sacramental effect.  Nevertheless, yes, a lot of them depart from the prescribed Rites and certainly the intention to do what the Church does can be called into question.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Are novus ordo baptisms valid?
    « Reply #14 on: July 18, 2020, 11:11:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 18, 2020, 03:07:41 PM
    I'm not a subscriber to the SSPX "intention" theology, and I believe that the intention to PERFORM the Rites of the Church suffices, the intention to DO what the Church does, even if the NO presbyter has no belief in or intention to confer the Sacramental effect.  Nevertheless, yes, a lot of them depart from the prescribed Rites and certainly the intention to do what the Church does can be called into question.
    That is not just SSPX intention that is the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church and it is encoded in Canon Law.
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