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Author Topic: Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?  (Read 4250 times)

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Offline holysoulsacademy

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Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
« on: February 09, 2014, 09:21:42 PM »
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  • An older priest/Msgr who was ordained long before V2 once told us that the reason the Monsignor wears purple, like the Bishop, is because as a Monsignor, they receive the "powers" of a Bishop, but without Jurisdiction.  A privilege that comes with their Title.

    He said that in an emergency they can perform the duties of a Bishop without having to receive any permissions.

    Does anyone know if there is any truth to this?

    Could this have anything to do with the Vatican suspending any more new Msgr appointments?

    Do they know something we don't?

     :incense:   :incense:    :incense:  

    Here's an article about this


    Offline poche

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #1 on: February 09, 2014, 10:44:28 PM »
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  • That is not completely true. If they were bishops there would be an episcopal consecration.


    Offline Anthony Benedict

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #2 on: February 09, 2014, 11:11:38 PM »
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  • More politics. More Revolutionary subversion based on Modernist claptrap.

    Jorge is intent on stripping the papacy (save for what HE likes doing with it) of its prestige, pre-eminent power and ancient luster.

    It follows that, as he wishes to dunk clerics in socialist sheep dip so that the glory of an ordained soul acting in anima Christi, in persona Christi can be "dumbed down" to the status of short order cook at the local soup kitchen, any recognition of above-average abilities must be eliminated, most especially if the overachiever happens to be younger than his muddle-headed superiors and, thus, a threat to the established mediocrities.

    Offline holysoulsacademy

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #3 on: February 09, 2014, 11:29:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    That is not completely true. If they were bishops there would be an episcopal consecration.


    Are you sure?  They are not being made Bishops, but they have the capacity to act as one. That's what I was told.

    Where would one start researching if there is truth to this?

     :scratchchin:  :scratchchin:  :scratchchin:

    Offline holysoulsacademy

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #4 on: February 09, 2014, 11:30:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Anthony Benedict

    a threat to the established mediocrities.


    That is the crux of it.  Only those from his gang would qualify.


    Offline crossbro

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #5 on: February 09, 2014, 11:58:41 PM »
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  • Monsignor is simply an honorary title.

    Online Nadir

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #6 on: February 10, 2014, 02:50:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: crossbro

    Monsignor is simply an honorary title.


    Correct.

    I also understand that in the NO an ordinary priest can stand in for the bishop in the "sacrament" of Confirmation.

    It's smoke and mirrors, froth and bubble! Ignore it! It's much ado about nothing.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #7 on: February 10, 2014, 03:44:14 AM »
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  • .

    There have been cases in the distant past when priests were given the permission to administer Confirmation, and also to ordain priests.  If you were listening closely, you would hear Bishop Williamson say, at any of the Confirmation sermons we have on record, that the "normal" minister is a bishop.  Have you ever wondered why he says "normal?"

    But maybe I shouldn't mention that because someone will get upset, usually a sede.  They get upset easily.


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    Offline soulguard

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #8 on: February 10, 2014, 09:55:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .

    There have been cases in the distant past when priests were given the permission to administer Confirmation, and also to ordain priests.  If you were listening closely, you would hear Bishop Williamson say, at any of the Confirmation sermons we have on record, that the "normal" minister is a bishop.  Have you ever wondered why he says "normal?"

    But maybe I shouldn't mention that because someone will get upset, usually a sede.  They get upset easily.


    .


    A sede get upset about a priest being able to ordain another priest in emergency situations? Why would a sede get upset about that? That is what the church may be forced to do if the bishops are not available. I'm not upset at all. Reading long winded abstract fanciful philosophical crap about why a missed capital "A" means the SSPX are now in apostasy, that could possibly uspset me, or it might make me laugh and say "Thou fool, thou foolest thyself thou fool".

    (Poetic phrase beginning "thou fool..." is copyright by soulguard Cathinfo 2014)
     :cool:

    Offline Dolores

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #9 on: February 10, 2014, 12:08:42 PM »
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  • Monsignor is simply an honorary title that is given to certain priests.  A person is not "ordained" or "consecrated" as a monsignor; it is simply an honorific he is given by the Holy See.  A monsignor cannot "step-in" for a bishop, he is still only a priest.

    Offline Dolores

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #10 on: February 10, 2014, 12:13:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    I also understand that in the NO an ordinary priest can stand in for the bishop in the "sacrament" of Confirmation.


    This is not a novel practice of the NO.  While it is the usual practice, in the West, for a bishop to Confirm individuals, priests have always been able to impart the Sacrament of Confirmation, so long as they had the permission of the bishop.

    In the East (Catholicism, not Orthodox), it is actually the standard practice for infants to be Baptized, Confirmed, and received the Eucharist all at once, by a priest.


    Offline Dolores

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #11 on: February 10, 2014, 12:16:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: soulguard
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .

    There have been cases in the distant past when priests were given the permission to administer Confirmation, and also to ordain priests.  If you were listening closely, you would hear Bishop Williamson say, at any of the Confirmation sermons we have on record, that the "normal" minister is a bishop.  Have you ever wondered why he says "normal?"

    But maybe I shouldn't mention that because someone will get upset, usually a sede.  They get upset easily.


    .


    A sede get upset about a priest being able to ordain another priest in emergency situations? Why would a sede get upset about that? That is what the church may be forced to do if the bishops are not available. I'm not upset at all. Reading long winded abstract fanciful philosophical crap about why a missed capital "A" means the SSPX are now in apostasy, that could possibly uspset me, or it might make me laugh and say "Thou fool, thou foolest thyself thou fool".

    (Poetic phrase beginning "thou fool..." is copyright by soulguard Cathinfo 2014)
     :cool:


    A priest CANNOT ordain.  It is simply a power he does not possess.  ONLY bishops have the power to ordain.

    If a priest were to attempt ordination, it would be the same result as if a layman were to try to absolve sins or consecrate bread and wine; nothing would happen, no Sacrament would occur.

    Offline Sigismund

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #12 on: February 10, 2014, 04:37:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: holysoulsacademy
    Quote from: poche
    That is not completely true. If they were bishops there would be an episcopal consecration.


    Are you sure?  They are not being made Bishops, but they have the capacity to act as one. That's what I was told.

    Where would one start researching if there is truth to this?

     :scratchchin:  :scratchchin:  :scratchchin:


    One is a bishop, or one is not.  You can't act like it if you aren't.  Sometimes monsignors are allowed to administer confirmation, but any priest can do that with delegation.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline poche

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #13 on: February 12, 2014, 12:02:39 AM »
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  • Here is more and better information on who is and who is not a mosignor;

    As early as the fourteenth century it was the custom to address persons high in rank or power with the title Monseigneur or Monsignore. In the intercourse of seculars, either of equals or of superiors with inferiors, there was no fixed rule. Until the seventeenth century French nobles demanded from their subjects and dependents the title of Monseigneur. In international intercourse two titles gradually won general recognition, "Monsieur" as the title of the eldest brother of the King of France (if not heir presumptive) and "Monseigneur" for the Dauphin, or eldest son of the French king, who was also the crown prince, or for whatever male member of the family was recognized as heir presumptive to the throne. Actually all Bourbon pretenders assume this title as a matter of course, e.g. the late Don Carlos Duke of Madrid, his son Don Jaime, the Count of Caserta, the Duke of Orléans, etc. Moreover, the custom often obtains, especially in Spain, France, and Italy, of extending by courtesy the title Monseigneur to the adult members of the Bourbons and closely allied families usually addressed as "Your Royal Highness". In official usage, however, this would scarcely be permissible. At present the title is no longer borne by other persons of civil rank, and, so far as the author of this article is aware, no one else lays claim to it. Among ecclesiastics the title Monsignore implies simply a distinction bestowed by the highest ecclesiastical authority, either in conjunction with an office or merely titular. In any case it bears with it a certain prescribed dress. To counteract a widely spread misconception we may state here that the pope does not bestow the title Monsignore, but a distinction of some sort to which this title is attached. Accordingly it is quite incorrect to say that any one has been appointed a Monsignor by the pope. If we may be permitted to use a comparison, Monsignor in the spiritual order corresponds to the word officer in the military. The highest general and the youngest lieutenant are equally officers, and the most venerable patriarch bears the title Monsignor as well as the simplest honorary chaplain. Thus among prelates, both higher and lower, it is no badge of distinction except as it denotes in a very general way an elevation above the ranks of the clergy. Those only bear the title of Monsignor, who are familiares summi pontificis, those who, by virtue of some distinction bestowed upon them, belong as it were to the family and the retinue of the Holy Father. These familiares are entitled to be present in the cappella pontificia (when the pope celebrates solemn Mass), and to participate in all public celebrations purely religious or ecclesiastical in character, at which the pope, the cardinals, and the papal retinue assist. it is assumed that they will appear in the robes corresponding to their respective offices.

    Up to 1630, when Urban VIII reserved the title Eminence (Eminentissimus) for the exclusive use of cardinals, the latter bore the title of Monsignor in common with the other prelates of high rank, and in France it is still customary to address a cardinal as Monseigneur. In all other languages this usage has completely disappeared, so that, practically speaking, cardinals are no longer counted among the Monsignori. All other prelates, from patriarchs down, who have received a papal distinction or are archbishops, bishops, or mitred abbots (among the secular clergy only), have a right to this title. The fact that it lapsed in usage in many countries, so far as these are concerned, does not affect the question. Instead of addressing patriarchs as "Vostra Beatitudine", archbishops as "Your Grace", bishops as "My Lord", abbots as "Gracious Lord" one may without any breach of etiquette salute all equally as Monsignor. Following is a list of official and honorary prelates exclusive of those already mentioned:

    •the college of the seven official prothonotaries Apostolic de numero participantium (of the number of participants);
    •the supernumerary prothonotaries (supra numerum), including, (a) the prelate canons of the three patriarchal basilicas of Rome, (b) the prelate canons of certain cathedral churches, while in office;
    •prothonotaries Apostolic ad instar participantium (after the manner of participants), including, (a) prelate canons of certain cathedral churches, as above, (b) prothonotaries appointed ad personam (individually);
    •the College of Auditors of the prelates;
    •the college of official clerics of the Apostolic Camera;
    •all other prelates not members of any of the above named colleges, the numerous domestic prelates scattered throughout the world. All the above-mentioned prelates are entitled to wear the mantelletta and rochet;
    •the private chamberlains constituting the official college of pontifical masters of ceremonies;
    •the official private chamberlains known as participantes;
    •the super-numerary private chamberlains (camerieri segreti soprannumerari), of whom there are several hundred in various parts of the Catholic world;
    •the honorary chamberlains in violet;
    •the honorary chamberlains extra urbem (outside the city), who are not received in their official capacity in the papal court when held at Rome;
    •the official college chaplains;
    •the honorary private chaplains;
    •the honorary chaplains extra urbem (see 11);
    •the private clerics; and
    •the official college of papal chaplains.

    In the case of certain of the above-mentioned classes the honorary office (together with the corresponding title and distinctive dress) lapses at the death of the pope. This is particularly true with regard to the supernumerary private and honorary Chamberlains. The reason for this is self-evident. It is possible to be prothonotary of the Holy Roman Church or cleric of the Apostolic Camera, etc.; but one cannot be chamberlain to the Holy Roman Church, but simply chamberlain to a particular pontiff, whose death dissolves the relation between the two. Unless the newly elected pontiff renews the appointment the former chamberlain returns permanently to the general ranks of the clergy. Nor is there inconsistency in the fact that certain lay chamberlains continue in the papal service immediately after a papal election. Their services are necessary to the new pontiff and he naturally recognizes such persons, which amounts practically to a tacit appointment. It is regrettable that occasionally persons thus distinguished by the pope either assume a dress arranged according to their own notions or, being dissatisfied with dress conceded, appropriate that of a higher office. The farther a country is from Rome, the more apt are such things to occur. It should be noted that members of religious orders may use the title "Monsignor" only if they are bishops or archbishops. All other ranks of the prelacy are of course closed to them, if we except the Master of the Sacred Palace, who being always a Dominican, is one of the prelates, but may not be addressed as Monsignor. The custom introduced in the sixteenth century of giving the generals of religious orders the title "Monsignor" was of short duration.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10510a.htm

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Are Monsignors Bishops? Without Jurisdiction?
    « Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 10:47:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: Dolores
    A priest CANNOT ordain.  It is simply a power he does not possess.  ONLY bishops have the power to ordain.

    If a priest were to attempt ordination, it would be the same result as if a layman were to try to absolve sins or consecrate bread and wine; nothing would happen, no Sacrament would occur.


    Really?  If "it would be the same result," then it HAS been the same result?

    And your source for this is, what?  You just heard it and you believe it?  

    Can you state with confidence that never has there been a valid ordination of a priest done by another priest who was not a bishop?  

    Do you have a degree in theology from the Vatican?  Or does that not matter anymore?  If not, you should make an announcement to that effect, just so everyone with a degree in theology from the Vatican will know, that their degree doesn't matter anymore, because they ought to know that the opinion of Dolores on CathInfo is more credible than their degree is, don't you think?


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