Author Topic: Arch. Lefebvre and the Rite 0f 1965 (Read 3842 times)

Tridentine MT · « **Reply #5 on:** March 02, 2015, 03:33:24 AM »

From the above, it looks probable.

Doing some searches, I found another article which looks disturbing to me:

Msgr. Lefebvre Used to Say the New Mass

How much can such an article be credible? I think that TIA are quite reliable.

Stubborn · « **Reply #6 on:** March 02, 2015, 05:14:00 AM »

Quote from: Tridentine MT

From the above, it looks probable.

Doing some searches, I found another article which looks disturbing to me:

Msgr. Lefebvre Used to Say the New Mass

How much can such an article be credible? I think that TIA are quite reliable.

From the link above: "You celebrated the “innovated Mass” from the beginning of April 1969 until 24th December 1971. I would say this is false.

In 1968, we found the True Mass in a basement, by 1969, I was an altar boy for Fr. Bonfil, the first SSPX priest - (here is a PDF that gives a little history about that era).

46 years ago in 1969 I was only 9 years old, so take this for what it's worth, but I remember that back then, Fr. and some of his group were searching for a trad bishop for his little group of trads and +ABL's name was one that was the topic of many of his conversations and a few of his sermons, I remember one sermon where Fr. said that +ABL did not say the "hootenanny mass".

So imo, if +ABL did say the new mass, I do not believe that he said it for very long, I highly doubt he said it from 1969 to 1971.

Tridentine MT · « **Reply #7 on:** March 02, 2015, 05:17:57 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Tridentine MT
From the above, it looks probable.

Doing some searches, I found another article which looks disturbing to me:

Msgr. Lefebvre Used to Say the New Mass

How much can such an article be credible? I think that TIA are quite reliable.

From the link above: "You celebrated the “innovated Mass” from the beginning of April 1969 until 24th December 1971. I would say this is false.

In 1968, we found the True Mass in a basement, by 1969, I was an altar boy for Fr. Bonfil, the first SSPX priest - (here is a PDF that gives a little history about that era).

46 years ago in 1969 I was only 9 years old, so take this for what it's worth, but I remember that back then, Fr. and some of his group were searching for a trad bishop for his little group of trads and +ABL's name was one that was the topic of many of his conversations and a few of his sermons, I remember one sermon where Fr. said that +ABL did not say the "hootenanny mass".

So imo, if +ABL did say the new mass, I do not believe that he said it for very long, I highly doubt he said it from 1969 to 1971.

Thanks for your insight, Stubborn. I await more responses from other fellow members of this Forum.

B from A · « **Reply #8 on:** March 02, 2015, 10:19:55 AM »

Quote from: Tridentine MT

Quote from: Stubborn

From the link above: "You celebrated the “innovated Mass” from the beginning of April 1969 until 24th December 1971. I would say this is false.

In 1968, we found the True Mass in a basement, by 1969, I was an altar boy for Fr. Bonfil, the first SSPX priest - (here is a PDF that gives a little history about that era).

46 years ago in 1969 I was only 9 years old, so take this for what it's worth, but I remember that back then, Fr. and some of his group were searching for a trad bishop for his little group of trads and +ABL's name was one that was the topic of many of his conversations and a few of his sermons, I remember one sermon where Fr. said that +ABL did not say the "hootenanny mass".

So imo, if +ABL did say the new mass, I do not believe that he said it for very long, I highly doubt he said it from 1969 to 1971.

Thanks for your insight, Stubborn. I await more responses from other fellow members of this Forum.

This issue resurfaces every now and again. Here is some commentary on it from one of the previous times.

Quote

I think that one ought to have great hesitation is accepting this alleged letter at face value -- the first question that jumps to mind is, "why has this only surfaced now?" decades after the deaths of both Abp. Lefebvre and Bp. Guérard des Lauriers. It is troubling, because there is no way for anyone to contact Bp. Guérard des Lauriers to confirm whether he wrote the letter or ascertain whether that which has been reproduced on the internet is accurate.

On the other hand, we have available to us the testimony of many living sources who can be "cross examined" on the matter, who say that Abp. Lefebvre never did celebrate the New Mass. One of the concerned correspondents, offered quotes from Marcel Lefebvre by Bp. Tissier de Mallerais. This reader wrote:

On p. 416, he mentions "Since Archbishop Lefebvre was opposed to the New Mass, he would not have it in the seminary. On the eve of the first Sunday of Advent 1969 when the NOM came into force in the diocese of Fribourg, the Archbishop simply said: "We'll keep the old Mass, eh?" Everyone agreed. ......according to Rome, the New Mass would only be obligatory at the end of 1971. Until then at least, the Old Mass could be maintained."

On p. 461, it says, Archbishop Lefebvre did not found his Society against the New Mass, but for the priesthood. However, the concerns of the priesthood now brought him to reject the new Ordo Missae. On June 9, 1971, the Archbishop returned from Paris.... At Econe, he called together the teachers and seminarians and began by handing out a typed sheet (which he did only rarely) with a summary of his talk, written on November 25, 1970. Until then, he had kept to the "old Mass" because it was still permitted: now, however, he would reject the Novus Ordo."

If you notice the dates, etc., it sounds like he never said the New Mass. Also, it seems to me in a sermon or somewhere in the Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre, he said he had never said the New Mass.

B from A · « **Reply #9 on:** March 02, 2015, 11:00:21 AM »

Quote

THE SHORT CRITICAL STUDY OF THE NOM

With the idea of presenting a petition to Pope Paul so that he might
delay the introduction of the Novus Ordo Missae (planned for the end of
November 1969) and see to its revision, Victoria Guerrini (who inspired
Una Voce) met with Archbishop Lefebvre to whom she was well known.
Her nom de plume was Cristina Campo, and together with her friend Emilia
Pediconi, another lady of Roman society, she came to find the
Archbishop. Since they could call whenever they wanted upon Cardinal
Ottaviani, they were able to act as go-betweens. It was decided that a
docuмent would be written to be passed on to the cardinal who agreed in
advance to revise it and submit it to the Pope...

As a bishop, Archbishop Lefebvre chaired the first meeting and some
of the night-time gatherings which took place "at a punishing rhythm" on
the premises of Una Voce in Rome between May and June 1969...

The Italian text was sent to Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci. Archbishop
Lefebvre begged other friends amongst the cardinals to help, but although
they read it they were afraid to sign it. The Archbishop also hoped
to secure the signatures of numerous bishops among whom were sixty Italians.
In the meanwhile, he had the text translated into French (Fr.
Guerard), German (Elizabeth Gerstner), Spanish (Don Luigi Severini),
and English (Professor Anderson). He also arranged to have it published
by various reviews and organizations friendly to Fortes in Fide after it had
been sent to the Pope.

...Finally on September 13 after much insistence, Cardinal Ottaviani's
approbation for the Short Critical Study was secured and he signed a letter
addressed to Paul VI. Cardinal Bacci signed it in turn on September 28.

from Bp. Tissier de Mallerais' biography, Marcel Lefebvre, pp. 396 - 397

If the Archbishop organized the group that put together the so-called Ottaviani Intervention in the spring of 1969, and the introduction of the Novus Ordo Missae was planned for the end of November 1969, does it seem likely or even possible that he was using this Mass starting in April? "Let me organize a group to write a docuмent and have it translated into many languages and petition various bishops to sign it to protest a Mass that hasn't even come out yet but that I am already using." And if Fr. de Lauriers worked with him on it at that time, why didn't he rebuke the Archbishop for using it then? +ABL may have been using the 1965 Missal at that time, and then later went back to the 1962 Missal, but he never said the New Mass.