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Author Topic: Any thoughts on the Ignatius Bible?  (Read 1122 times)

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Offline theology101

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Any thoughts on the Ignatius Bible?
« on: July 10, 2012, 10:31:40 PM »
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  • I just got the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament for my Nook. Has anyone read this translation and checked it for orthodoxy? I have always been a fan of Dr. Hahn, so when I heard he was involved I decided to buy it. Of course the Scriptures are orthodox, but I wonder about the footnotes and introductions, etc.

    Where would I go to check the orthodoxy of this translation? I mean, what verses or passages would I read the footnotes for to see if the explanations of that text match up with Traditional Catholic teaching?

    Or is there any other approved translation than the D-R? Don't get me wrong, it's nice in a quaint way, but I prefer more modern translations like the RSV or NAB.


    Offline Sigismund

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    Any thoughts on the Ignatius Bible?
    « Reply #1 on: July 11, 2012, 09:25:24 PM »
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  • I believe they use the RSV translation.  It is all right, but it was mostly Protestant in its origin.  It does have an imprimatur.  The Haydock is much better.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline theology101

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    Any thoughts on the Ignatius Bible?
    « Reply #2 on: July 11, 2012, 11:52:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    I believe they use the RSV translation.  It is all right, but it was mostly Protestant in its origin.  It does have an imprimatur.  The Haydock is much better.



    Hmm i haave a Haydock commentary on The WORD app but didnt know there was a bibl too

    Offline Nadir

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    Any thoughts on the Ignatius Bible?
    « Reply #3 on: July 12, 2012, 01:06:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: theology101
    I have always been a fan of Dr. Hahn, so when I heard he was involved I decided to buy it.


    When I see Scott Hahn held up, alarm bells start ringing in my head. It may be that shortly after I first became aware of the importance of the evolution creation debate, I listened to one of his scripture lectures and he was referring the story of creation. I cannot remember exactly what he said that made me suspicious then. At the time it was very real, but response today is rather a gut-reaction.

    Anyway, for what it is worth…..

    On http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=531251
    On Jan 27, '11, Nathan Wagar has this to say
    Re: What's Wrong With Scott Hahn?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Okay, I am going to try and give you a balanced opinion on this, using my own thoughts, conversations with priests, traditionalist viewpoints, etc.

    Dr. Hahn catches a lot of flack for having been protestant. Personally I think that's retarded, he's been a Catholic for what, over twenty years now? My wife was Catholic longer than that and is just now doing RCIA. When are you "Catholic" enough? Where's the magical timeline?

    Dr. Hahn was instrumental in my own conversion, and although I have moved past his fluffier works, I still appreciate his more indpeth works and particularly his revised dissertation on covenant. He is a formidable theologian , but he chooses to write accessible works for your average cafeteria Catholic to deepen their faith. Most of his more scholarly work people haven't even heard of, and that's fine. For those that are so inclined, his more accessible work often leads them out of the kiddy pool and into deeper waters, and in that sense he is a true blessing.

    Now for some constructive criticism. He tends to have the "shiny new toy" syndrome. It doesn't bother him if only a few if any theologians have ever interpreted a passage as he does, because he seems (some would contend) to look for a novel idea, and then present it as fact. A lot of his ideas ironically come from protestant scholarship, and if you look at some of his cited sources, few of them are Catholic. Many argue that this isn't a good thing, that tradition is tradition for a reason, and if it isn't taught by any fathers or tradition, then there's probably a good reason for it.

    As a theologian, Dr. Hahn has every right to pursue scholarship in areas that have not been defined by the Church. I would prefer a more cautious approach in light of tradition, but I can't blame him for wanting to trailblaze. Here's the problem though: precisely because most of his works are for your average layperson, they should be learning what the Church has always taught, not private speculations of Dr. Hahn. If a layperson feels so moved, then he can further look into matters in more scholarly works. However, the average person has neither the time nore inclination to do so. Dr. Hahn's works, for better or worse, may be this person's main exposure to Church teaching (the term "Hahn-verts" comes to mind). It should be Church teaching. Dr. Hahn seems to have the tendency, even in his more orthodox works, to promote his own theory, even as he admits it is not the traditional view.

    I'll give an example. The new Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. I have it, I love it. In the book of Galations, he talks about "works of the law." The Church, along with thelogians, fathers, and the Council of Trent, has taken the hardline view of "works" referring to any moral work of Torah. Law does not justify apart from grace, and circuмcision is the main example of a deeper spiritual issue. Dr. Hahn prefers the "New Perspective," which states that it only refers to ceremonial works like circuмcision. Because Dr. Hahn prefers this position, he cites Jerome, Origen, Ambrosiaster, Aquinas, etc in support of his view, to make it sound like it is very old. He does admit that it is contested, but only gives one (Augustine) to the contrary view. This is hardly equal play. Here's the thing though, New Perspective on Paul was started in protestant, not Catholic scholarship. And I looked up every single example he cited, and they were all cited selectively. Ambrosiaster refers to Law in both ways, implying the traditional broader view, as did Jerome, etc. And even if Jerome did think so, his commentary on Romans admittedly took from Origen, who is not the best witness for orthodoxy. I love the writings of Origen, but you need to exercise caution. More importantly, even though Catholic theologians at the time of Trent espoused the "ceremonial" viewpoint, Trent did not use such argumentation, and this is significant for our situation today.

    Other examples could be his viewpoint on the millenium in Revelation. He admits that it is not traditional, the Church understands the binding of Satan as being on the cross, not the Old Covenant under David. He can only point to one Catholic theologian named Corsini that has ever believed as such, and yet that's the only viewpoint you see about the apocalypse in his books, Michael Barber's etc. He goes on to say that this viewpoint is completely compatible with the trditional view, a la polyvalent prophecy; the four senses of Scripture, etc. However, this is almost a brush-off, since he never shows how the two views are compatible, and never even teaches the traditional view. Similar things can be said about the idea of "uncovering Noah's nakedness," the actual nature of the Original Sin of Adam (absolutely no traditional support), and some of his views on the Holy Spirit (which I don't personally have an issue with).
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
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    Offline Sigismund

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    Any thoughts on the Ignatius Bible?
    « Reply #4 on: July 12, 2012, 07:12:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: theology101
    Quote from: Sigismund
    I believe they use the RSV translation.  It is all right, but it was mostly Protestant in its origin.  It does have an imprimatur.  The Haydock is much better.



    Hmm i haave a Haydock commentary on The WORD app but didnt know there was a bibl too


    The Biblical test in the Haydock Bible is just the standard DRV. Look it up on amazon.  The expensive red one is worth the price.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline theology101

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    Any thoughts on the Ignatius Bible?
    « Reply #5 on: July 13, 2012, 10:07:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    Quote from: theology101
    I have always been a fan of Dr. Hahn, so when I heard he was involved I decided to buy it.


    When I see Scott Hahn held up, alarm bells start ringing in my head. It may be that shortly after I first became aware of the importance of the evolution creation debate, I listened to one of his scripture lectures and he was referring the story of creation. I cannot remember exactly what he said that made me suspicious then. At the time it was very real, but response today is rather a gut-reaction.

    Anyway, for what it is worth…..

    On http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=531251
    On Jan 27, '11, Nathan Wagar has this to say
    Re: What's Wrong With Scott Hahn?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Okay, I am going to try and give you a balanced opinion on this, using my own thoughts, conversations with priests, traditionalist viewpoints, etc.

    Dr. Hahn catches a lot of flack for having been protestant. Personally I think that's retarded, he's been a Catholic for what, over twenty years now? My wife was Catholic longer than that and is just now doing RCIA. When are you "Catholic" enough? Where's the magical timeline?

    Dr. Hahn was instrumental in my own conversion, and although I have moved past his fluffier works, I still appreciate his more indpeth works and particularly his revised dissertation on covenant. He is a formidable theologian , but he chooses to write accessible works for your average cafeteria Catholic to deepen their faith. Most of his more scholarly work people haven't even heard of, and that's fine. For those that are so inclined, his more accessible work often leads them out of the kiddy pool and into deeper waters, and in that sense he is a true blessing.

    Now for some constructive criticism. He tends to have the "shiny new toy" syndrome. It doesn't bother him if only a few if any theologians have ever interpreted a passage as he does, because he seems (some would contend) to look for a novel idea, and then present it as fact. A lot of his ideas ironically come from protestant scholarship, and if you look at some of his cited sources, few of them are Catholic. Many argue that this isn't a good thing, that tradition is tradition for a reason, and if it isn't taught by any fathers or tradition, then there's probably a good reason for it.

    As a theologian, Dr. Hahn has every right to pursue scholarship in areas that have not been defined by the Church. I would prefer a more cautious approach in light of tradition, but I can't blame him for wanting to trailblaze. Here's the problem though: precisely because most of his works are for your average layperson, they should be learning what the Church has always taught, not private speculations of Dr. Hahn. If a layperson feels so moved, then he can further look into matters in more scholarly works. However, the average person has neither the time nore inclination to do so. Dr. Hahn's works, for better or worse, may be this person's main exposure to Church teaching (the term "Hahn-verts" comes to mind). It should be Church teaching. Dr. Hahn seems to have the tendency, even in his more orthodox works, to promote his own theory, even as he admits it is not the traditional view.

    I'll give an example. The new Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. I have it, I love it. In the book of Galations, he talks about "works of the law." The Church, along with thelogians, fathers, and the Council of Trent, has taken the hardline view of "works" referring to any moral work of Torah. Law does not justify apart from grace, and circuмcision is the main example of a deeper spiritual issue. Dr. Hahn prefers the "New Perspective," which states that it only refers to ceremonial works like circuмcision. Because Dr. Hahn prefers this position, he cites Jerome, Origen, Ambrosiaster, Aquinas, etc in support of his view, to make it sound like it is very old. He does admit that it is contested, but only gives one (Augustine) to the contrary view. This is hardly equal play. Here's the thing though, New Perspective on Paul was started in protestant, not Catholic scholarship. And I looked up every single example he cited, and they were all cited selectively. Ambrosiaster refers to Law in both ways, implying the traditional broader view, as did Jerome, etc. And even if Jerome did think so, his commentary on Romans admittedly took from Origen, who is not the best witness for orthodoxy. I love the writings of Origen, but you need to exercise caution. More importantly, even though Catholic theologians at the time of Trent espoused the "ceremonial" viewpoint, Trent did not use such argumentation, and this is significant for our situation today.

    Other examples could be his viewpoint on the millenium in Revelation. He admits that it is not traditional, the Church understands the binding of Satan as being on the cross, not the Old Covenant under David. He can only point to one Catholic theologian named Corsini that has ever believed as such, and yet that's the only viewpoint you see about the apocalypse in his books, Michael Barber's etc. He goes on to say that this viewpoint is completely compatible with the trditional view, a la polyvalent prophecy; the four senses of Scripture, etc. However, this is almost a brush-off, since he never shows how the two views are compatible, and never even teaches the traditional view. Similar things can be said about the idea of "uncovering Noah's nakedness," the actual nature of the Original Sin of Adam (absolutely no traditional support), and some of his views on the Holy Spirit (which I don't personally have an issue with).


    Those are interesting insights, thank you. Dr. Hahn was one of the main reasons I converted, along with the Catechism lessons by Fr. John Corapi. It was sad to see Fr. Corapi corrupted by money, to the point he abandoned his vows. Who knows Dr. Hahn's heart? But one can't deny the deep love of Scripture Protestants have and former Protestants keep, even after 20 years. I do worry whether those like Dr. Hahn aren't still sort of 'sola scriptura' and tend to ignore Tradition, though.