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Offline Trinity

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Another thought
« on: May 10, 2010, 08:26:47 AM »
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  • Ya'll can laugh me off the forum if you want to, but I'm going to share this thought with you.

    Remember God removed the Israeli's to graft us on.  What if we are now being removed so He can graft others on.  We drove past a Methodist church the other day and it struck me how these people love Jesus but reject His church.  Mind boggling.  Still and all I know some lovely protestants who I surely wouldn't want to see in hell.  Perhaps God is of a like mind.

    If this is the case, we should be glad for what is going on.  And it's not as if the Israelis couldn't have gotten right back on board.  All they had to do was give up their erroneous belief that they were going to have their paradise on earth.  It's not as if they got it.  

    Are we holding out for something?  Can we get back on board?  What is fundamental here?
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Another thought
    « Reply #1 on: May 10, 2010, 09:55:41 AM »
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  • One point: The OT was superseded by the NT.  There is no such transition that will take place at this time.  The NT dispensation is it -- until the breaking of the world.

    Yes, we have already seen that the bulk of the formerly-Christian West has become an abomination in God's sight.  It will be thoroughly cleansed, and other groups, historically outside the fold, will be brought into the fold.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Trinity

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    Another thought
    « Reply #2 on: May 10, 2010, 09:59:10 AM »
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  • Ok....but I don't think God can fault the protestants for not finding the Catholic Church these days.  
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.

    Offline Belloc

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    Another thought
    « Reply #3 on: May 10, 2010, 10:17:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Trinity
    Ok....but I don't think God can fault the protestants for not finding the Catholic Church these days.  


    To a certain extenet, but if most Catholics do not aknow a fig about the faith, why then do we think prots would see teh truth the the Faith?? Homo priests, pedophiles,scandal, coldness-esp in some trad cirlces,poor theology that scandalizes many moderatea nd conservative Prots.....

    think about it, most Catholics do not know much and worse, do not care.....most are falling away in droves.....and you wantto blame the Prot that sees this all going on and sees no difference in that and the 1000's of sects on his side of the aisle?

    Most are converted by example, not fancy words and such, so where is there example? the silliness of the NO? or the cold, angry in trad circles. all too often.

    how can we then blame a prot, when our own house is teetering and in shambles?

    I blame Prots a lot less these days and yearn more for a Catholic cινιℓ ωαr to get things out in the open, fight the battles and stop this pretending......that is one thing that has happened, more is out in open then in the mileu of the 70's.

    we should be cleaning our own house out, so that it is pure,clean and attracts others from without.....to do that, we need to fight it out and have an internal war, not play lets blame the Prot.....again, people will come in because of example and sings of unity, right now to an outsider, there is none and it is a miracle we get any converts, though must say, most are of poor quality, but again, owing to the poor quality and cathecism of our present debacle.......nothing is taught to them nor expected of them....the Prots are often better at welcoming and working the neewbie into their world...
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Trinity

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    Another thought
    « Reply #4 on: May 10, 2010, 12:35:09 PM »
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  • I was thinking more along the line of how small the Catholic Church has become and then we obscure it with our quibbling.  These are extraordinary times calling for extraordinary measures.
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.


    Offline Belloc

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    Another thought
    « Reply #5 on: May 10, 2010, 12:37:38 PM »
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  • good points
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Dulcamara

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    Another thought
    « Reply #6 on: May 10, 2010, 02:31:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Trinity
    Ok....but I don't think God can fault the protestants for not finding the Catholic Church these days.  


    The refutation of this statement is the same as it has been in any other age concerning the "ignorant" or "nice guys" going to hell.

    If you say that in any age whatsoever, there are people who either do not have the sufficient grace to save their souls, or the truth that we need to save our souls is nowhere to be found, you accuse God of the injustice of condemning people according to criteria He did not give them the chance of meeting. This is an error.

    There is virtually no corner of the earth today wherein one could never hear of, or learn the truth about, the Catholic Faith. (That is, tradition.) This means that today, there is very little room left for "invincible ignorance." While we cannot accuse God of injustice in condemning the truly innocent, the fact is that we tend to grossly exaggerate the number of truly innocent souls (in terms of ignorance) in this world, in any age.

    This is what you might call "the terrible weight of being human." The fact is that our actions, our choices... what we ourselves decide to do, or do not do, to believe, or do not believe... will ultimately send us to heaven or hell. You can pretty much say, I think, that God does not "send" people anywhere. We send ourselves.

    If we get to heaven, we get there because we answered God's call, God's graces, with our own actions to move toward Him, and abide in His law and in His grace. If we go to hell, it will not be by any accident, but "through our fault, through our fault, through our most grievous fault."

    It may seem like today it is harder than heck to find the truth. Actually, one has only to want it seriously. If one wants it sincerely and seriously, one WILL arrive at it, by the grace of God. That is to say, if one does not merely take a detour away form the truth, on the first offer of a 'faith' that will permit them to live a soft life of sin while lying to their conscience that they are doing just fine. But if they want to do what is right, and not merely what they WANT, or what they LIKE... I believe it is virtually impossible for them NOT to come to the traditional Catholic Faith. This becomes even more believable, when one listens to conversion stories of people from all walks of life from atheists to other sects, of how one step after another, they came, often by a dogged pursuit of the naked truth, be what it may... to the Faith. It is there, IF WE CHOOSE IT. And if we choose to find Him, and we are honest and serious in our search, and we do not choose something else just to spare ourselves, I believe we will come to it, because I believe God IS good.

    It's easy to look at the mess with the Church and say, "who on the outside could POSSIBLY find the truth?!" But we forget: with men it may not be possible. But with GOD, ALL things are possible. We cannot accuse God of letting even a single soul go to hell without the grace to find Him, if they were seriously wanting to come to the truth, be what it may. If they try only halfheartedly, and then turn aside to spare their flesh or passions... that is a CHOICE. And one that is their responsibility, and theirs only.

    This is the awesome responsibility of having a free will. As someone once put it, "the moment-to-moment choices between heaven and hell." There is virtually no human action (thought, word or deed) that is truly morally "neutral". Eating, for instance, is good when done for our health and nourishment, and evil when done to excess for sheer pleasure. Playing a game is good if the game is good, and it is for our health and recreation (a necessity), and evil if the game is evil, or leads us to sin, or if it's done to excess, to the destruction of our health or the neglect of our duties. Almost every human action can be boiled down to being either good for some reason, or potentially evil in other cases. You cannot take a glass of water, and you have done either good or evil by doing it.

    The responsibility of the human free will means that if we do not make those moment-to-moment choices wisely, we will suffer the consequences for those choices, according to God's perfect justice. The responsibility, however, is only our own. We may be weak, but God will give us the grace to get to heaven, if we want it and sincerely pursue it, not sparing ourselves. If we get lost in this life, put ourselves and our flesh first, and choose something else, it is our fault only.

    This is a fact we too often forget. We, being weak humans, like best those superiors who are soft. We like the people that "let us get away with murder" and don't punish. We like it so much, that as a rule, and unless we guard ourselves carefully against it, we imbibe the spirit of the world, which is to think or say that punishment in itself is somehow an evil. This is only the fruit of our own selfishness, and self-love. It ignores completely any real concept of perfect JUSTICE... how that it is right and good and fitting, that all things, whether good or bad, should have their just rewards, their perfect return.

    We look at those who are potentially on their way to hell, from what we can tell, and we are often scandalized through our own weakness, at the idea that these people may go to hell. Our minds and hearts make up excuses for them... they couldn't possibly know.... they would never REALLY choose the wrong thing if they had realized what the right thing was... they're nice people, so surely they'll be forgiven... But all such excuses only attempt to deny the reality of our free will, and it's responsibility.

    God will not leave men in the dark, who do not wish to be left there. And if those people do not accept Him or His Religion, then we may suspect (because God IS perfectly just) that they have rejected them of their own free will. We may not like to think that, especially if we think the person in question is "nice" and "well meaning" ... but if we can say that about someone who is rejecting God and His Faith, then I dare say it has been a long time since we thought seriously about the meaning of the words "nice" and "well meaning".

    It is ever a source of scandal, almost universally (that is, among the ranks of Catholics and non Catholics alike), that the good God should "send nice/good people to hell." Those who are scandalized have forgotten some very important points.

    1) As I said, God does not really "send" anyone ANYWHERE. He has given us a free will. He expects us to use it. In fact, we cannot help doing so. We WILL make choices, in one direction or another, every moment of our lives. And because precisely we HAD a choice, God will, in perfect justice, hold us accountable for those choices. The only choice we do NOT have, or can NOT make, is to choose not to choose. The agnostic may claim that he has simply chosen not to chose, but we hear him answered from the pages of scripture, "he who is not with me, is against me." To choose not to choose God, is exactly and automatically to NOT choose Him. There is no way out but for each of us to make these choices, one way or another, every moment of every day, until we die. We are going to be responsible for what we choose, because we have that choice, because it is our will that we follow.

    No man at the wheel of a car, if conscious, can claim anyone else is to blame if he breaks the speed limit, whether through negligence (not paying it any attention) or on purpose. Either way, it is, to whatever degree, HIS fault, and no one elses. God has put us at the wheel of the car called life, by giving us a free will. He has given us a time limit and a destination, and laws to follow on the way. What we do from there is entirely up to us, and entirely our fault. We just have the advantage that if we are ever in an accident until the end of that time limit, God is more than willing to come and help us put the car back together again.

    2) the person who says that they're scandalized that "nice" or "good" people may go to hell, can only be thinking about things from the very skewed point of their own personal perspective. They are suffering from the worldview of a spoiled child. "Daddy is mean if he spanks me." Or "so-and-so is nice, because they buy me candy." If we still think this way, it's about time we slap ourselves and grow up. Perhaps this will help people to adjust their vision to better clarity of the situation...

    A man may be a monster, and positively unbearable to other men through some defect of character or weakness of his own. But if he is good to God... that is, if he loves, respects and tries with his whole heart and strength to follow God and be sorry for and make up for his sins... than he is ACTUALLY "good" (inasmuch as any of us sinners can be, anyway). He is ACTUALLY "good," because he is good to GOD, or at least tries his best to be. Other men may think he's atrocious, and may not be able to stand him at all. But God is pleased with him ig he's doing the best he can to follow God, love God and serve God, and that is all that matters. Actual goodness depends upon the degree or willingness with which we know, love and serve God. It does not, and CAN not, depend upon anything else.

    If, on the other hand, you have a man who is seen as so sweet, so kind, so generous to a fault, so forgiving and so well mannered, that it is impossible NOT to like him... but that man has rejected God and His truth, doesn't want it, doesn't care to know it, and doesn't intend to obey Him... that man is NOT good. To call him good is to lie, plain and simple.

    A man who is like this cannot be good since he offends God out of his own, free will, and without caring that he does or trying not to. He cannot be good, if he doesn't care about God, or doesn't really care what God really wants or expects from Him. We cannot imagine such a man to be good, who can reject out of hand the sacrifice of love of our crucified Savior, and just say it doesn't matter to him. And we cannot imagine that such men are innocent. That they simply "didn't know" or "were never told" or that other circuмstances out of their control prevented them from coming to the truth. If they had really wanted to know, nothing on earth probably could have prevented them from finding out. But the key is... "if they had REALLY WANTED to know."

    It is the cancer of cowardice at work in our fallen human nature, that makes every one of us prone to make excuses, either for ourselves, or for others, doing evil. We like to think we ourselves are never REALLY at fault. That from our daily stress to other people, to things that happened, it is never REALLY our fault. Not entirely. We will almost never once put the blame squarely where it really is, and where it really belongs... with US.

    The same is true of people we like. Of people who are "nice" to US. We forget very easily how they treat GOD... as long as they are nice to US. We forget that their sins, too, nailed our beloved Lord to the cross... as long as they are "nice" to US. We are ready to ignore that they are defying him every moment of their lives by refusing His law and/or His true Faith... just as long as they are sweet and kind to US.  We don't seem to care much that they show the magnificent Lord and Master of the entire created universe, with all of His infinite might, splendor, and perfection in every good... endless and infinite disrespect by "brushing him off" as though He were the most insignificant gnat... just so long as they never brush US off.

    This is sick. It's distorted. It's altogether a very wrong and seriously perverse way of looking at things.

    Whenever we are tempted to be scandalized at the thought of all those "nice people" going to hell, we need to stop and shake ourselves back to reality. That eternal reality we're all going to face some day, whether we like it or not. And in that reality, these people are NOT "nice" or "good."  They are NOT "innocent" (at least 99.9999999% are not, because there is not a country on earth, and very few nooks inside of those countries, that have not been exposed, at some time or other, to the idea of God and the Catholic Church). They are not "nice" or "good" so long as they are obnoxious, proud, ungrateful b@stards toward God... no matter HOW "nice" or "sweet" they may be to US, or everyone else in the world. THAT is reality.

    When we stop looking at things purely from the question of how we feel, or how they are for US... and start looking at them from the point of view of how they are in relation to God, or in His point of view... you begin to form a very different picture of things, wherein everything starts to make a whole lot more sense. Suddenly we do not see a world full of "poor nice people" who may "SHOCKINGLY be SENT to hell," but a world full of the same kind of people as those who watched, or even joined in the crucifixion of Our Lord. A world of people who were each given a free will, and the grace to save their souls, and who have CHOSEN not to. WHY they have chosen not to is not particularly important. The point is, God is good, perfect and ready to help them in every step along the way to get to heaven... and these people have simply chosen not to. No mysterious black cloud has entrapped them, whereby the choice never passed before their eyes. If God expects us to save ourselves, He will make sure that each one of us gets that choice. If they are not choosing Him, that is a CHOICE... and one they are responsible for, to whatever degree.

    The only truly "good" or "nice" people, are the saints of God. But all of us have to choose whether or not we care, and that is a choice that every soul on earth will have to make. If they choose badly, THEY have chosen it, and so they are responsible for that choice, and deserving of it's consequences. This is called JUSTICE... and it is something we have lost virtually all concept of, because we are too lost in how "nice" everybody here is to everybody else BUT God.

    Of course we should not declare any individual WILL go to hell. We do not know that they will not make the right choice before the end. Only God knows that. And of course, we should love and pray for these poor people. But we should never allow ourselves to forget for a moment about justice... and how that the most important justice is that which is due to GOD... not just to other human beings. That it is NOT all right for people who are "nice" to US, to treat God as abominably or disrespectfully or ungratefully as they like. If a man does not choose God, he cannot be good, and he will deserve hell because of that offense, just as a man would deserve heaven if he DID chose God.
    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi

    Offline Trinity

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    Another thought
    « Reply #7 on: May 10, 2010, 03:20:38 PM »
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  • Yeah, I used tobelieve that all one had to do was want the truth totally and seek it sincerely and it would be ours.  But no two people believe the same things.  How can it be that only one aspired to and received the truth and which one was it?
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.


    Offline Alexandria

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    Another thought
    « Reply #8 on: May 10, 2010, 03:40:55 PM »
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  • The protestants have less of an excuse today than they ever did.  Even Catholic Answers will say that a good share of them are willfully blind and ignorant.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Another thought
    « Reply #9 on: May 10, 2010, 03:54:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Dulcamara
    There is virtually no corner of the earth today wherein one could never hear of, or learn the truth about, the Catholic Faith. (That is, tradition.) This means that today, there is very little room left for "invincible ignorance."


    This is (extremely) disputable.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Trinity

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    Another thought
    « Reply #10 on: May 10, 2010, 03:58:58 PM »
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  • You could be right, Dulcamara, but you can't prove that's the way it's going to go down, and what a grim and cheerless hypothesis it is.

    Let me run another unbelievable thing past you.  His Excellency was telling us what a Mexican woman told him.  Seems her first born was still born, or so the dr. said.  They were so poor they had only a newspaper to wrap him in to bury him.   Just as the dr. was leaving their picture of Jesus floated off the wall and landed on the newspaper wrapped baby and the newspaper moved.  The dr. came back and removed the newspaper and the baby was alive.  Do you believe that, Dulcamara?
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Another thought
    « Reply #11 on: May 10, 2010, 04:57:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Dulcamara
    They are NOT "innocent" (at least 99.9999999% are not, because there is not a country on earth, and very few nooks inside of those countries, that have not been exposed, at some time or other, to the idea of God and the Catholic Church)...THAT is reality.


    Have you ever visited, or perhaps lived, outside of the US?

    V2 has been an enormous part of the devil's creation of a situation where it is, arguably, MUCH more likely that one could remain invincibly ignorant about a great many things, despite notably good will.  Is someone born post-V2, for example, supposed to benefit substantially from the fact that the true Gospel was preached in his native land centuries ago, even though the Faith and the practice thereof has long-since died out, or has been terribly obscured/perverted?

    IMO, it is wiser to refrain from such speculation (e.g., 99.9%, etc) into matters that are WAY beyond our capacity, and have little to no practical use for us as we seek to navigate a VERY stormy, pirate-infested sea.

    As Gandalf advises Frodo..."Do not be too eager to deal on death and judgment.  Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

    Considering that I cannot even be absolutely CERTAIN about whether or not I am deserving of God's love or hatred, the guilt or innocence of others, whose lives I know nothing about, is best left alone.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Dulcamara

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    Another thought
    « Reply #12 on: May 10, 2010, 06:33:12 PM »
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  • I should have expected someone would misunderstand, I guess.

    I wasn't judging people. I was simply stating what we know to be true about ALL people, without exception, and what we know to be true about God.

    We KNOW that all people have a free will.

    We KNOW that God is all-good, and perfectly just... but that it would be unjust to ask us to live up to a set of criteria (eg, belonging to the Catholic Faith, except in very rare circuмstances where someone has no access to it AT ALL, such as that tribe of natives down in the Brazilian forest still running around in loincloths, for example), without giving us ALL the ability to meet those criteria, in any age, in spite of all obstacles.

    We know that every moment of our lives, we are choosing between heaven and hell by the use of our free will. And we know that those actions are what determine our salvation (including actions like trying to live a good, Catholic life, or else making up our minds to reject God and His faith).

    Finally, we know that every moral judgment a human being makes in his or her life, depends upon what they believe to be moral. And you cannot tell me with a straight face, that in their whole lives, a person making moral decisions all the time, has never once asked themselves how they know WHAT is right or wrong, and WHY they think so.

    It's not my pessimism, or lack of charity, but these realities that condemn every soul that has ever fallen into hell. The fact that they had a free will, and CHOSE to live the life they lived, and to continue to live that way until death.

    Now the very act of deciding you don't care WHAT is true, is in itself a refusal of God. The very decision to NOT go in search of the truth, is a decision that you don't WANT the truth. Each one of us will probably make millions of such, apparently "little" decisions in our lives. But however insignificant they may seem, or however nonchalantly we make them, we do CHOOSE those things for ourselves. And justice demands that some day we are rewarded for our actions... good for good, and bad for bad.

    What I'm saying is NOT "I think all the non Catholics are miserable jerks, just because I think so!" What I'm saying is, there are certain facts of the human condition, of justice, of what God does for each one of us so that we CAN save our souls, that does, for everyone... except perhaps for those like the natives in the jungle who have never met outsiders before... have very real consequences.

    There are many "hard" things about the Faith, or about the truths of it. One of them is precisely this very difficult admission of our own responsibility to save our own bacon. We must acknowledge on one hand that God has definitely, out of love, stacked the deck (so to speak) in our favor. We know, because He is good, that He will help those who really, truly, sincerely and fully desire the truth, and are trying to find it, no matter how it hurts when they do (for instance, to have to start getting up early for Mass, or not being able to watch bad movies anymore).

    But in the end, to quote again from a much beloved book... "There is no man that God does not wish to be saved. But there is no man that God will save against that man's will."

    The ball is in our court. The choice is our own. That is why we can say, based upon reality alone, that there is next to no room to claim invincible ignorance. While the jungle native that has yet to be discovered by the outside world, may be able to tell God sincerely that he had no possible access to the truth, but DID live his life as morally as he could according to what he THOUGHT was moral... most of us do not have the luxury of the jungle. Most of us have libraries, and internets, and priests, and contact with people who claim to be some kind of Christian who possess some fraction of the truth, or Catholics who possess the WHOLE truth, and so forth. So for most of us, even those born outside of the Church, to pretend that it is not our fault if we don't come to the truth, even in these times, is simply to run away from our own responsibility.

    Even in these times, God is still all powerful. He is still able to get a man to the books or people that man needs to influence him to save his soul, if that man goes looking. He is able to lead that man, even through a whole string of false religions, to the traditional Catholic Faith, so long as that man will stop at nothing short of the truth. If the man is willing, God certainly is! (See the Cross for details.) To say that simply because of the crisis in the Church, some people CAN NOT find the truth is to ignore that God can do anything. It's not that they CAN NOT, because God would certainly help them if they were determined. It's that for whatever reason, they WILL NOT.

     The crisis in the Church, however bad and widespread, is nothing to hinder God and His power and providence. Even if tomorrow all the Churches in the world were torn down, and the Church forced entirely underground, God, in His might, can still get a man to the truth.

    We hate to look at the non-Catholics we know and love, and say "this person may really send themselves to hell." But while God will give them the opportunity to avoid it, it is THEY who must and will choose one place or the other... whether they want to chose or not. (As "not choosing" is to chose hell.)

    Truth is very harsh, sometimes. But it's when men run away from it, or try to make it into something it isn't, that we get confusion. The V-II nightmare itself, for that matter, is hardly anything else than a lot of people who look at the Bible and think they have a better way of understanding it, whereby everyone is really a lot better, a lot nicer, a lot holier and a lot more eternally secure than anyone has before given them credit for being. The only problem is, it's not true.

    In reality, we choose one or the other by our actions, and no man gets through this life without choosing one way or the other. It's not a matter of opinion. It's just seeing things according to what we know is true of every man.


    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Another thought
    « Reply #13 on: May 10, 2010, 06:37:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Dulcamara
    I should have expected someone would misunderstand, I guess.


    I did not misunderstand.  You were not crystal clear.  That is why you clarified (at some length, too).  No biggie.  I am sure that others, as I, are glad you did so.  Thank you :)
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Another thought
    « Reply #14 on: May 10, 2010, 06:43:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: Dulcamara
    That is why we can say, based upon reality alone, that there is next to no room to claim invincible ignorance.


    Which is, in essence, contrary to what Pius IX said about the matter.  Go (re-)read what he wrote.

    You have NO IDEA what sort of 'wiggle room' (for lack of a better term) exists; just remain silent about it.  I know it is hard, but it is the wise course.

    BTW, things were a helluva lot simpler when Pius IX wrote what he did.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."