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Author Topic: Animals in Heaven?  (Read 5011 times)

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Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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Animals in Heaven?
« on: April 02, 2012, 07:32:07 PM »
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  • I have heard several Traditional Catholics say that they believe there are animals in Heaven. Of course, animals do not have souls. I'm sort of confused... does anyone have any opinion on this? Thanks in advance.

    God Bless.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #1 on: April 02, 2012, 07:43:09 PM »
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  • My thoughts are, there is nothing on earth that is better than what is in Heaven.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

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    Offline s2srea

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #2 on: April 02, 2012, 07:44:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    I have heard several Traditional Catholics say that they believe there are animals in Heaven. Of course, animals do not have souls. I'm sort of confused... does anyone have any opinion on this? Thanks in advance.

    God Bless.


    If i'm not mistaken, they have temporal souls; but I thought they died when the animal dies.

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #3 on: April 03, 2012, 01:25:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    I have heard several Traditional Catholics say that they believe there are animals in Heaven. Of course, animals do not have souls. I'm sort of confused... does anyone have any opinion on this? Thanks in advance.

    God Bless.


    If i'm not mistaken, they have temporal souls; but I thought they died when the animal dies.


    I believe it would be more correct to say they have material souls that will
    ceased to exist when the body dies. This is what I remembered being
    taught in Catechism Class over 50 years ago by Nuns.

    Offline Graham

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #4 on: April 03, 2012, 08:51:38 AM »
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  • Animal comes from Latin anima, meaning soul or vital principle.

    Animals have souls, but lack the power of self-consciousness, or reason, and are therefore mortal.



    Offline SJB

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #5 on: April 03, 2012, 05:04:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    I have heard several Traditional Catholics say that they believe there are animals in Heaven. Of course, animals do not have souls. I'm sort of confused... does anyone have any opinion on this? Thanks in advance.

    God Bless.


    Man has an immortal soul while animals have material dependent souls.

    Quote from: Spirago-Clark, The Catechism Explained
    The souls of men are essentially different from those of the lower animals; and have different faculties and capabilities. The souls of animals are incapable of striving after perfection, or of searching into the causes of things; hence they can have no knowledge of their end ; they are led by instinct, not by reason. They have no craving after a higher happiness and are quite satisfied with the enjoyment of sense ; they have no spiritual nature, but are essentially dependent on matter.

    2. The soul of man is immortal, i.e., it can never cease to exist.

    The soul can never cease to exist, but it becomes spiritually dead when it loses the grace of God by mortal sin.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Nishant

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #6 on: April 04, 2012, 06:31:15 AM »
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  • Sacred Scripture says "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb: and the leopard shall lie down with the kid: the calf and the lion, and the sheep shall abide together, and a little child shall lead them." (Isa 11:6)

    It is certain that the soul of animals ceases to exist upon death. But am not sure if this is metaphorical, or is to be understood in some other sense.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Marcelino

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #7 on: April 04, 2012, 10:15:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    I have heard several Traditional Catholics say that they believe there are animals in Heaven. Of course, animals do not have souls. I'm sort of confused... does anyone have any opinion on this? Thanks in advance.

    God Bless.


    Man has an immortal soul while animals have material dependent souls.

    Quote from: Spirago-Clark, The Catechism Explained
    The souls of men are essentially different from those of the lower animals; and have different faculties and capabilities. The souls of animals are incapable of striving after perfection, or of searching into the causes of things; hence they can have no knowledge of their end ; they are led by instinct, not by reason. They have no craving after a higher happiness and are quite satisfied with the enjoyment of sense ; they have no spiritual nature, but are essentially dependent on matter.

    2. The soul of man is immortal, i.e., it can never cease to exist.

    The soul can never cease to exist, but it becomes spiritually dead when it loses the grace of God by mortal sin.


    That seems like a good description of animals vs. men.  What would be the consequences of animals having souls?  Would they have their own "sacraments?"   :jester:


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #8 on: May 06, 2012, 03:36:37 AM »
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  • People have all the attributes of animals, including senses, digestion, elimination, growth, corruptibility, health, etc. But there are two things people have that animals don't have and those are Intellect and Will.

    By intellect is meant the ability to think, to contemplate cause and effect; to abstract, that is, to think of something that is not there at the moment. Being able to plan for the future and to learn from the mistakes of others. It also entails the ability or faculty of speech. There is no animal that can speak, although scientists are hard at work trying to find one, in their attempt to assert their rejection of religion. To be fair, it is not always the scientists, but the financial backers of their projects who are primarily responsible.

    Speaking of speech, and scientists, they usually don't like to hear this sentence. "We do not think with our brain." I have seen scientists get tied up in knots trying to argue against that proposition. But it is quite simple to prove, to someone who has the eyes of faith.

    The other thing, the will, is man's greatest asset, and his worst folly. It is by an act of will that we can put ourselves into eternal damnation or ascend to the heights of heaven, for mortal sin or heroic virtue is reducible to an act of the will.

    Animals cannot think with intellectual acuity. They can only act according to their experience and instinct. They might seem to be making a "choice" in their behavior, but this is our interpretation of their animal thinking based on our desire to impose human faculties on animals that have none. Animals cannot make an act of the will, for they have no will. They behave according to what "feels right," and we ought to take note of this, for modern man seems to enjoy basing his decisions on feelings. He may not realize he is debasing his dignity of being human by doing so, which lowers him to the level of a brute animal.

    Animals have a soul, but it's not a spiritual soul, for they lack intellect and will, and they're incapable of adoring God. That's why they don't belong at Mass! Don't bring you bird, snake or cat into the Church, please. When a person dies, their soul goes to its particular judgment, and then to one of 3 places, one of which is hell, and yes, Jennifer, hell is a place. When an animal dies, its soul returns to the potency of matter. End of story.

    To think and/or believe that animals will be in heaven is approximately founded in a basic ignorance of what heaven is. Our experience is a prisoner of time, and everything we observe and consider doing involves time. A sentence is composed of a subject and a predicate, the latter of which needs a verb. Without a verb, you don't have a sentence, and any grammarian will tell you that a sentence is a complete thought expressed in intelligible language. Therefore, you cannot express a complete thought without a verb. But verbs are contingent on time, that is, without time verbs make no sense. The bottom line is, for us to think about a reality that is without time is practically impossible, for time is inherently essential for our minds to communicate with language.

    But in heaven there is no time. So how can we think about heaven? How can we express our thoughts about something that has no time, and our thoughts must involve time for them to be communicated with intelligible language?

    God created time, before he created anything else. The angels were created in time, and then after they were tested, they moved outside of time. But with God's permission they can step back into time, so to speak, however briefly. God exists outside of time, for God is eternal. And heaven is ultimately our sharing of God's eternal glory, which is something that does not involve time, and exists outside of time. This is a great mystery and is beyond our ability to comprehend, even though we enjoy the power of intellect and will. But in eternal life (or eternal death, which is hell) we will be perfectly cognizant of that reality and this is intimately related to the seeing of God face-to-face, which is heaven.

    So how do animals fit into that picture? Remember, when we say "animals," we don't get to choose our favorite pet, and exclude that annoying neighbor's dog that barks all the time, because that dog is our neighbor's favorite pet and it's not our place to decide who goes to heaven along with their pet.  Nor can we choose one animal species and not another, for some people are "cat" persons and others are "dog" persons, and still others are "horse" or "snake" or whatever persons. Nor can we exclude the fish in the sea, the birds of the air, the insects in the bushes or the microbes in between. We cannot exclude plankton.



    If we add up the weight of all the insects that spiders consume worldwide in one day, it approximates the weight of the world's population of people. Add to that the amount of plankton in the seas, and you have an astronomical body mass. How does that fit in heaven? What purpose would it serve? We would have to allow all the insects, arachnids, plankton, paramecium, elephants, whales, tuna fish, sharks, gila monsters, antelope, porcupines, farm animals, and on and on and on, for the entire history of the world from the beginning of time. And for what?

    Not a single one of them has an intellect or a will, and cannot contemplate the reality of God, and would have nothing to do, say or see outside of time.

    Those who say they can't imagine a heaven without animals simply admit they can't imagine heaven. That's okay, because we really cannot imagine heaven, anyway. We will know it when we get there, and not before.

    And anyone who dares to believe that "if heaven has no animals, then I don't want to go there," should be careful of what they ask for, because they just might get it.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Alex

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #9 on: May 06, 2012, 03:52:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    People have all the attributes of animals, including senses, digestion, elimination, growth, corruptibility, health, etc. But there are two things people have that animals don't have and those are Intellect and Will.

    By intellect is meant the ability to think, to contemplate cause and effect; to abstract, that is, to think of something that is not there at the moment. Being able to plan for the future and to learn from the mistakes of others. It also entails the ability or faculty of speech. There is no animal that can speak, although scientists are hard at work trying to find one, in their attempt to assert their rejection of religion. To be fair, it is not always the scientists, but the financial backers of their projects who are primarily responsible.

    Speaking of speech, and scientists, they usually don't like to hear this sentence. "We do not think with our brain." I have seen scientists get tied up in knots trying to argue against that proposition. But it is quite simple to prove, to someone who has the eyes of faith.

    The other thing, the will, is man's greatest asset, and his worst folly. It is by an act of will that we can put ourselves into eternal damnation or ascend to the heights of heaven, for mortal sin or heroic virtue is reducible to an act of the will.

    Animals cannot think with intellectual acuity. They can only act according to their experience and instinct. They might seem to be making a "choice" in their behavior, but this is our interpretation of their animal thinking based on our desire to impose human faculties on animals that have none. Animals cannot make an act of the will, for they have no will. They behave according to what "feels right," and we ought to take note of this, for modern man seems to enjoy basing his decisions on feelings. He may not realize he is debasing his dignity of being human by doing so, which lowers him to the level of a brute animal.

    Animals have a soul, but it's not a spiritual soul, for they lack intellect and will, and they're incapable of adoring God. That's why they don't belong at Mass! Don't bring you bird, snake or cat into the Church, please. When a person dies, their soul goes to its particular judgment, and then to one of 3 places, one of which is hell, and yes, Jennifer, hell is a place. When an animal dies, its soul returns to the potency of matter. End of story.

    To think and/or believe that animals will be in heaven is approximately founded in a basic ignorance of what heaven is. Our experience is a prisoner of time, and everything we observe and consider doing involves time. A sentence is composed of a subject and a predicate, the latter of which needs a verb. Without a verb, you don't have a sentence, and any grammarian will tell you that a sentence is a complete thought expressed in intelligible language. Therefore, you cannot express a complete thought without a verb. But verbs are contingent on time, that is, without time verbs make no sense. The bottom line is, for us to think about a reality that is without time is practically impossible, for time is inherently essential for our minds to communicate with language.

    But in heaven there is no time. So how can we think about heaven? How can we express our thoughts about something that has no time, and our thoughts must involve time for them to be communicated with intelligible language?

    God created time, before he created anything else. The angels were created in time, and then after they were tested, they moved outside of time. But with God's permission they can step back into time, so to speak, however briefly. God exists outside of time, for God is eternal. And heaven is ultimately our sharing of God's eternal glory, which is something that does not involve time, and exists outside of time. This is a great mystery and is beyond our ability to comprehend, even though we enjoy the power of intellect and will. But in eternal life (or eternal death, which is hell) we will be perfectly cognizant of that reality and this is intimately related to the seeing of God face-to-face, which is heaven.

    So how do animals fit into that picture? Remember, when we say "animals," we don't get to choose our favorite pet, and exclude that annoying neighbor's dog that barks all the time, because that dog is our neighbor's favorite pet and it's not our place to decide who goes to heaven along with their pet.  Nor can we choose one animal species and not another, for some people are "cat" persons and others are "dog" persons, and still others are "horse" or "snake" or whatever persons. Nor can we exclude the fish in the sea, the birds of the air, the insects in the bushes or the microbes in between. We cannot exclude plankton.



    If we add up the weight of all the insects that spiders consume worldwide in one day, it approximates the weight of the world's population of people. Add to that the amount of plankton in the seas, and you have an astronomical body mass. How does that fit in heaven? What purpose would it serve? We would have to allow all the insects, arachnids, plankton, paramecium, elephants, whales, tuna fish, sharks, gila monsters, antelope, porcupines, farm animals, and on and on and on, for the entire history of the world from the beginning of time. And for what?

    Not a single one of them has an intellect or a will, and cannot contemplate the reality of God, and would have nothing to do, say or see outside of time.

    Those who say they can't imagine a heaven without animals simply admit they can't imagine heaven. That's okay, because we really cannot imagine heaven, anyway. We will know it when we get there, and not before.

    And anyone who dares to believe that "if heaven has no animals, then I don't want to go there," should be careful of what they ask for, because they just might get it.


     :applause:

    One of my pet peeves is the idea that we will be able to be with our loved pet in heaven. Please!

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #10 on: May 06, 2012, 07:02:25 AM »
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  • Quote from: Graham
    Animal comes from Latin anima, meaning soul or vital principle.

    Animals have souls, but lack the power of self-consciousness, or reason, and are therefore mortal.



    Uh have you ever seen animals interact? They most definitely have some form of reason and self-consciousness even if it is a tiny amount. Obviously people have the most but you can even look at your basic cattle or household cat and dog and see they have those qualities.


    Offline Graham

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #11 on: May 06, 2012, 09:36:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    Quote from: Graham
    Animal comes from Latin anima, meaning soul or vital principle.

    Animals have souls, but lack the power of self-consciousness, or reason, and are therefore mortal.



    Uh have you ever seen animals interact? They most definitely have some form of reason and self-consciousness even if it is a tiny amount. Obviously people have the most but you can even look at your basic cattle or household cat and dog and see they have those qualities.


    Get back to me when your dog understands the principle of non-contradiction and starts wondering about the meaning of life.

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #12 on: May 06, 2012, 09:38:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Graham

    Get back to me when your dog understands the principle of non-contradiction and starts wondering about the meaning of life.


    I said "basic" reason.

    Offline Graham

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #13 on: May 06, 2012, 09:49:39 PM »
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  • So you mean a dog has some instrumental cognitive ability: can learn that fire hurts, that begging works on certain people, that peeing in the house is wrong, etc. That isn't reason - reason refers to reflection and intellectual intuition. Animals don't have that.

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Animals in Heaven?
    « Reply #14 on: May 08, 2012, 09:59:12 AM »
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  • A Cat tries revive her friend.

    A very sad video, but a teaching lesson when it comes to animals.