Author Topic: Anglican Orders  (Read 1039 times)

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Offline Dolores

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Anglican Orders
« on: January 13, 2014, 07:52:09 AM »
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  • When did Anglican Orders become invalid?  My understanding is that when Henry VIII broke from Holy Mother Church, the newly-created Anglicans were treated like the eastern schismatics, in that their Orders and Sacraments were valid, but illicit.  However, I know by the 20th Century, Anglicans Orders were considered invalid by the Church.  When did this change happen, and for what reason?  Did it have to do with the "ordination" of women, or it predate that?

    Offline Domitilla

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    Anglican Orders
    « Reply #1 on: January 13, 2014, 08:43:23 AM »
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  • Pope Leo XIII declared Anglican Orders invalid.


    Offline Memento

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    « Reply #2 on: January 13, 2014, 08:44:13 AM »
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  • To start with, please read Apostolicae Curae, Pope Leo XII's encyclical. That is the document which gives the determination of invalidity of the Anglican orders.

    Michael Davies says this In "The Order of Melchisedec"

    Quote
    "The 1550 Ordinal was revised in 1552, the principal difference being found in the service for the ordination of a priest in which the ceremony for the delivery of the chalice and paten was removed. Even in the 1550 rite the signification of this ceremony had been reduced to giving authority to minister the Sacraments and not the power to offer sacrifice. "


    Father Paul Trinchard, S.T. L. In his book The Abbot and Me on Liturgy (available through Maeta publishers) quotes Abbot Gasquet, whom I believe he says wrote Apostolicae Curae, in his four Advent Sermons given at St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC in 1913 wherein he explains all the changes that happened to the Anglican Service and also to the Anglican priesthood.

    You can find many sources on the Internet for this information. I believe the validity of the Anglican orders were in doubt to a combination of this: due to the loss of the Apostolic line at one point and to the change of the formula for the orders of the priest . Pope Leo XIII made clear that those doubts were confirmed as positively invalid in 1896.

    Offline Memento

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    Anglican Orders
    « Reply #3 on: January 13, 2014, 09:02:53 AM »
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  • I find this interesting: New Advent encyclopedia refers to Apostolicae Curae as a bull. Fr. Trinchard calls it an "Apostolic letter" and the Vatican has it archived here under Papal Encyclicals:

    Apostolicae Curae


    I know from conversations with people who have advanced educations from Novus Ordo establishments that the document no longer carries any weight in their book. This can be seen in action in video clips of  John Paul II and Benedict XVI who both gave the Anglican prelates (laymen) the same respect as they did the Orthodox, who in fact do have valid, although schismatic, orders.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #4 on: January 13, 2014, 06:40:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Domitilla
    Pope Leo XIII declared Anglican Orders invalid.


    True, but it is important to remember that this did not make them invalid.  They were invalid already. Pope Leo XIII simply recognized this fact and officially declared it.  

    There are some validly ordained Anglican priests, I expect, but very few.  They are not validly ordained becasue of anything Anglican, but becasue they had been Catholic or Orthodox priests before becoming Anglicans, or were ordained by Old Catholic bishops.  Even then, I am not sure that someone who was really an Anglican theologically could generate valid intention if his life depended on it.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline poche

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    « Reply #5 on: January 14, 2014, 03:57:26 AM »
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  • Now that the Old catholic Communion has accepted woman's ordination the validity of their ordinations will soon become an open question.

    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #6 on: January 14, 2014, 06:48:59 AM »
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  • Many of the arguments against the Anglican Ordinal apply to the Novus Ordo, something that even Michael Davies commented upon in The Rite of Melchizedek though he inexplicably rejects the implications.

    As for the Old Catholics, I have been led to believe that they had also changed their ordinal somewhat and their orders may already be patently invalid, though I don't have specific knowledge of the issue; but, I agree that the acceptance of priestesses, by its very nature, means that the understanding of the true priesthood is corrupted and requires one to presume that priests ordained by a bishop who has such a theology is not validly ordained.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #7 on: January 14, 2014, 08:56:08 PM »
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  • Old Catholics are a mixed bag.  Some of them do ordain women, and I agree with Poche that that at the very least calls their orders into question.  I can't see how someone who thinks women can be priests  could have a valid intention.  The "real" Old Catholics (the Europeans in communion with the Old Catholic See of Utrecht and the Polish National Catholic Church in this country) as far as I know do  not ordain women.  The PNCC broke communion with the Anglicans when they started ordaining women, the European Old Catholics did not.  The so called Independent Old Catholics often have very questionable orders.  I would think the prudent thing to do now would be o be very skeptical about Old Catholic ordinations that have occurred in  the last 20 years or so.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


     

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