Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Adults In Limbo  (Read 3633 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Ladislaus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33853
  • Reputation: +19908/-4226
  • Gender: Male
Re: Adults In Limbo
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2022, 07:06:02 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Why can't an infant, who has yet to be born, desire to be baptized?

    Perhaps you can answer how an infant without the use of reason CAN desire to be baptized.

    See, this is the kind absurdity to which BoD doctrine leads.  It has been stretched and extedended so that anyone can be saved via this ridiculous "BoD" ... from infidels to atheists, and here (taking it to its ultimate extremes) even someone who is incapable of "desire".  So perhaps even the "desire" is completely implicit.

    BoD is an absolute joke.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7488
    • Reputation: +4246/-743
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #46 on: September 23, 2022, 07:13:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Online Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 33853
    • Reputation: +19908/-4226
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #47 on: September 23, 2022, 07:37:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • We know that at the end of time there is only heaven and hell.  We also know that those who have died without mortal sin on their souls don't have the normal suffering of hell but are deprived of the happiness of heaven. 

    Ergo...  It stands to reason that there must be a place in hell where those go who have not committed a mortal sin and are innocent except that they never received sanctifying grace.  They are kept from the presence of God but do not have to suffer as those do who lived terrible lives and committed mortal sins and deserve punishment.

    It's somewhat disputed whether Limbo is part of Hell proper or a different place, but other than that, this is absolutely correct.  While Limbo has not been revealed per se, it's become accepted by the vast majority of theologians, and it does logically flow from the principles you cited.

    1)  DOGMA:  one cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven and the beatific vision with Original Sin alone.

    2) (originally disputed but now nearly-universally agreed upon beginning with St. Thomas Aquinas)  Those who have not committed actual sin are not punished for it.  (Recall that not going to Heaven is not a punishment, as that is a free gift to which we are not naturally entitled.)

    Between these two, it's near universal consensus that there is a place or a state like Limbo.  Originally, St. Augustine held that those in category two could end up in Hell, suffering, but with a very mild suffering.  This opinion persisted (in the West) for 700 years before being questioned and eventually rejected.  Meanwhile, in the East, with the likes of St. Gregory nαzιanzen and others, they already held to a limbo scenario.  In fact, St. Gregory rejected Baptism of Desire precisely on the grounds of this principle, that there deprivation of Heaven is no punishment.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8007
    • Reputation: +4034/-848
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #48 on: September 23, 2022, 07:49:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • It's somewhat disputed whether Limbo is part of Hell proper or a different place, but other than that, this is absolutely correct.  While Limbo has not been revealed per se, it's become accepted by the vast majority of theologians, and it does logically flow from the principles you cited.

    1)  DOGMA:  one cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven and the beatific vision with Original Sin alone.

    2) (originally disputed but now nearly-universally agreed upon beginning with St. Thomas Aquinas)  Those who have not committed actual sin are not punished for it.  (Recall that not going to Heaven is not a punishment, as that is a free gift to which we are not naturally entitled.)

    Between these two, it's near universal consensus that there is a place or a state like Limbo.  Originally, St. Augustine held that those in category two could end up in Hell, suffering, but with a very mild suffering.  This opinion persisted (in the West) for 700 years before being questioned and eventually rejected.  Meanwhile, in the East, with the likes of St. Gregory nαzιanzen and others, they already held to a limbo scenario.  In fact, St. Gregory rejected Baptism of Desire precisely on the grounds of this principle, that there deprivation of Heaven is no punishment.
    And then there was the teaching of this fellow, some who believe is "still" the pope:


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-limbo/catholic-church-buries-limbo-after-centuries-idUSL2028721620070420
    How much longer Lord?

    Online Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 33853
    • Reputation: +19908/-4226
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #49 on: September 23, 2022, 07:51:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • And then there was the teaching of this fellow, some who believe is "still" the pope:


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-limbo/catholic-church-buries-limbo-after-centuries-idUSL2028721620070420

    And it's not because they've reverted to the opinion of St. Augustine that they go to Hell and suffer there either.  It's unabashed Pelagian heresy.  I find it ironic that Bergoglio accused Traditional Catholics of being Pelagians.  Of course, he clearly meant Jansenists and has no clue abou what Pelagianism is.


    Online Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 33853
    • Reputation: +19908/-4226
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #50 on: September 23, 2022, 07:54:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • And then there was the teaching of this fellow, some who believe is "still" the pope:


    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-limbo/catholic-church-buries-limbo-after-centuries-idUSL2028721620070420

    And this statement here comes from a place of extreme ignorance and disqualifies whoever wrote this from being competent to address the matter:
    Quote
    “People find it increasingly difficult to accept that God is just and merciful if he excludes infants, who have no personal sins, from eternal happiness, whether they are Christian or non-Christian,” the docuмent said.

    According to Catholic Limbo doctrine (from the time of St. Thomas on), these infants DO experience "eternal happiness" ... only a natural (vs. supernatural) happiness.

    To claim that only personal sins (not Original Sin) exclude from Heaven is open Pelagian heresy.

    Offline epiphany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3543
    • Reputation: +1090/-875
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #51 on: September 23, 2022, 01:06:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • Perhaps you can answer how an infant without the use of reason CAN desire to be baptized.

    See, this is the kind absurdity to which BoD doctrine leads.  It has been stretched and extedended so that anyone can be saved via this ridiculous "BoD" ... from infidels to atheists, and here (taking it to its ultimate extremes) even someone who is incapable of "desire".  So perhaps even the "desire" is completely implicit.

    BoD is an absolute joke.
    No baby has the use of reason, born or unborn.  It is the godparents who answer for the child.  Why, then, can't the parents answer for an unborn child who dies with no ability to be baptized.

    BoD is dogma.
    Feenyism is heresy.

    Church Teaching on Baptism of Desire:
    • "The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed. (Augustine, Enarr. in Ps. 57)" St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Whether a man can be saved without Baptism?
    • "By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Fourth Chapter, A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
    • "baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent" St. Alphonsus Ligouri's Moral Theology Manual (15th century), Bk. 6, no. 95., Concerning Baptism
    • "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments." Encyclical On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore) by Pope Pius IX, 1863
    • “Baptism, the door and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire necessary unto salvation for all, is not validly conferred except through the ablution of true and natural water with the prescribed form of words.” (Canon 737)
      “Those who have died without baptism are not to be given ecclesiastical burial. Catechumens who die without baptism through no fault of their own are to be counted among the baptized.” (Canon 1239) 1917 Code of Canon Law
    • "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church." Pope St. Pius X, Catechism of Christian Doctrine
    • "17 Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
      A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire." Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Sacraments - Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized
    • "The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood" 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism
    • "The efficacy of this baptism of desire to supply the place of the baptism of water, as to its principal effect, is proved from the words of Christ. After He had declared the necessity of baptism (John, iii), He promised justifying grace for acts of charity or perfect contrition (John, xiv): "He that loveth Me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." And again: "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him." Since these texts declare that justifying grace is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or contrition, it is evident that these acts supply the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of sins" 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, Baptism of Desire
    • "The same doctrine is taught by Pope Innocent III (cap. Debitum, iv, De Bapt.), and the contrary propositions are condemned by Popes Pius V and Gregory XII, in proscribing the 31st and 33rd propositions of Baius." 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, Baptism of Desire
    • "We have already alluded to the funeral oration pronounced by St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II, a catechumen. The doctrine of the baptism of desire is here clearly set forth. St. Ambrose asks: "Did he not obtain the grace which he desired? Did he not obtain what he asked for? Certainly he obtained it because he asked for it." St. Augustine (IV, De Bapt., xxii) and St. Bernard (Ep. Ixxvii, ad H. de S. Victore) likewise discourse in the same sense concerning the baptism of desire." 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism, Baptism of Desire


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8007
    • Reputation: +4034/-848
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #52 on: September 23, 2022, 01:10:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Epiphany=Troll

    How much longer Lord?


    Offline epiphany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3543
    • Reputation: +1090/-875
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #53 on: September 23, 2022, 01:24:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Epiphany=Troll
    Because I follow the dogma of the Church, I presume...

    It seems to me that the CI crowd has come down to feeney-ite sedes running the show. 

    Offline Yeti

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2280
    • Reputation: +1276/-374
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #54 on: September 23, 2022, 01:30:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No baby has the use of reason, born or unborn.  It is the godparents who answer for the child.  Why, then, can't the parents answer for an unborn child who dies with no ability to be baptized.

    BoD is dogma.
    Feenyism is heresy.


    I agree with the second part, but the first part makes no sense. The godparents answer the questions of the priest in the baptism ceremony. But your next sentence makes no sense. You are saying that the child is not baptized, but also that the parents should similarly be able to answer for the child in the exact same sentence. What exactly is the question you think the parents are able to answer?

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8007
    • Reputation: +4034/-848
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #55 on: September 23, 2022, 01:33:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • This thread wasn't about BOD until you brought it up epiphany.  It has NOTHING to do with Infant Limbo.  You're the one who turned it into a BOD/Feeneyite discussion [and unfortunately Matthew has moved it to the Ghetto because of that].  Meanwhile, you still think unbaptized infants and preborns go to Heaven.

    You're nothing but a Modernist troll...
    How much longer Lord?


    Online Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 33853
    • Reputation: +19908/-4226
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #56 on: September 23, 2022, 01:36:32 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Because I follow the dogma of the Church, I presume...

    It seems to me that the CI crowd has come down to feeney-ite sedes running the show.

    Distraction.  You don't have to be a Feeneyite to uphold the Church's dogma that infants who die without the Sacrament cannot be saved.  That teaching is repeated over and over again in the Magisterium.  Baptism of Desire works ex opere operantis (as per St. Alphonsus) and therefore cannot be operative in the case of someone who lacks the use of reason.

    Online Stubborn

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 12460
    • Reputation: +4912/-806
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #57 on: September 23, 2022, 01:37:53 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • In the Baptismal Rite, the priest already asks the sponsors, who answer for the baby:

    Priest: Do you wish to be baptized?
    Sponsors: I Do

    What do you suppose happens next?
    If you guessed the baby actually gets baptized with water you'd be correct!
    If you guessed that was good enough they all could leave immediately after answering, you'd also be correct? No.
    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline epiphany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3543
    • Reputation: +1090/-875
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #58 on: September 23, 2022, 01:39:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • This thread wasn't about BOD until you brought it up epiphany.  It has NOTHING to do with Infant Limbo.  You're the one who turned it into a BOD/Feeneyite discussion.  Meanwhile, you still think unbaptized infants and preborns go to Heaven.

    You're nothing but a Modernist troll...
    Liar.
    Not once did I say I think unbaptized infants and preborns go to Heaven.  Not Heaven.

    What I showed was that the Church teaches there is a possibility that the unborn can be baptized and go to heaven.

    Three forms of baptism is dogma of the Church.  Anything else is heresy. 

    Offline epiphany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3543
    • Reputation: +1090/-875
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #59 on: September 23, 2022, 01:44:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • This thread wasn't about BOD until you brought it up epiphany.  It has NOTHING to do with Infant Limbo.  You're the one who turned it into a BOD/Feeneyite discussion [and unfortunately Matthew has moved it to the Ghetto because of that].  Meanwhile, you still think unbaptized infants and preborns go to Heaven.

    You're nothing but a Modernist troll...
    It was actually Ladislaus who brought up infants in limbo.
    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/adults-in-limbo/msg846852/#msg846852

    Feeneyism doesn't even belong "in the ghetto", because it is heresy plain and simple.