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Author Topic: Adults In Limbo  (Read 5684 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Adults In Limbo
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2022, 12:13:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on September 22, 2022, 07:54:59 AM
    "Infant limbo"?  Is that another kind of Limbo?

    This is where, I believe, many traditional Catholics get into trouble.  It doesn't matter what we believe as much as what is.

    I had sent you a link from Catholic Encyclopedia explaining the entire matter.  Did you simply ignore it?  Every Catholic has heard the distinction between the "Limbo Patrum" (Limbo of the Fathers) ... which you rightly indicate ceased to exist after Our Lord's Resurrection, and the "Limbo Infantium" (Limbo of Infants), which continues on.  Surely you can't be this ignorant of Catholicism to never have heard these two terms before ... or at least the concept.  Every Catholic who has the least bit of catechesis has heard of the notion that infants who die unbaptized go to Limbo.

    That last sentence again perplexes me.  With the teaching authority of the Church, "what we believe" conforms to "what is".  As the aforementioned article explains, theologians are nearly unanimous about the fact that unbaptized infants go to Limbo.  So, do you claim to have some better information about "what is" than pretty much nearly every Catholic theologian since the time of St. Thomas?
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #31 on: September 22, 2022, 12:18:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on September 22, 2022, 08:02:49 AM
    It doesn't matter what we believe as much as what is. 

    :facepalm:  so, do tell us, where do infants who die unbaptized go?

    Nearly all Catholic theologians have concluded the existece of Limbo from two dogmatic truths ...
    1) those who die in Original Sin cannot go to Heaven and enter the Beatific Vision
    and
    2) those who die without the guilty of actual sin will not suffer any "punishment" (as Original Sin is not a punishable offense)

    So it necessarily follows that there's a place which is not Heaven and also not Hell, not in the sense of a Hell where people are punsihed ... although some hold that Limbo is actually part of Hell.  Regardless of where the "place" actually is, the question is the STATE in which these souls spend eternity if they die without Original Sin and yet also without the guilty of actual sin.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #32 on: September 22, 2022, 12:22:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on September 22, 2022, 09:18:02 AM
    The Church has never defined dogma on such.

    Oh, the Church most certainly has ... as cited by another poster above.  This is UNANIMOUS consensus of all Church Fathers from the beginning.  Now, for a while theologians, following St Augustine, posited that infants who died unbaptized go to Hell, but theologians reconsidered this and, since the time of St. Thomas, it's nearly undisputed.

    Nevertheless, despite historical controversy about the details of where they do actually go, it's been dogmatically defined and taught repeatedly that those who die in Original Sin alone cannot go to Heaven.  In other words, it's dogmatically certain where they do NOT go, i.e. to Heaven.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #33 on: September 22, 2022, 12:24:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on September 22, 2022, 09:15:16 AM
    Read the article i posted again. 

    That article is pure Modernist trash.  YOU read the article from Catholic Encyclopedia.

    If you deny that infants who die without the Sacrament of Baptism cannot go to Heaven and enter the Beatific Vision, you are a Pelagian heretic.
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    Offline Romulus

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #34 on: September 22, 2022, 02:26:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Sgt Rock USMC on September 22, 2022, 12:00:59 PM
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Letentur coeli
    “We define also that… the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go straightaway to hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds.”

    That's pretty clear to me...
    Limbo is a part of Hell, so the belief of Limbo of the Innocents doesn't violate this
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    Offline Sgt Rock USMC

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #35 on: September 22, 2022, 03:03:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Romulus on September 22, 2022, 02:26:56 PM
    Limbo is a part of Hell, so the belief of Limbo of the Innocents doesn't violate this
    I never said it did.  I was merely providing the teaching of the Church on those poor souls who perish with the stain of original sin.  
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #36 on: September 22, 2022, 04:17:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 22, 2022, 12:24:53 PM
    That article is pure Modernist trash.  YOU read the article from Catholic Encyclopedia.

    If you deny that infants who die without the Sacrament of Baptism cannot go to Heaven and enter the Beatific Vision, you are a Pelagian heretic.
    Show me the dogma of the Church on Limbo.

    I was taught and believe three forms of baptism.  I also believe what I was taught about Limbo being closed after the resurrection and ascension.   I also believe it is not something we need to worry about if we take care to baptize as soon as is possible. 

    Condemning anyone is above my pay grade.

    I try to do the best I can and leave the rest to God.
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    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #37 on: September 22, 2022, 04:34:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on September 22, 2022, 04:17:53 PM
    I also believe what I was taught about Limbo being closed after the resurrection and ascension.  I also believe it is not something we need to worry about if we take care to baptize as soon as is possible. 

    Condemning anyone is above my pay grade.

    I try to do the best I can and leave the rest to God.
    He's not condemning you, he's warning you that rejection of it is heresy. If you're claiming to be a Traditional Catholic, you have an obligation to know at least what the Church traditionally teaches on these matters before arguing about it.

    Quote
    Show me the dogma of the Church on Limbo.

    Here's what the Church teaches. It primarily is against the Pelagian errors.
    Quote
    1526 26. The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable, that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name of the limbo of children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of the punishment of fire, just as if, by this very fact, that these who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk,-false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools. - Pope Pius VI, Denzinger, 13th ed. p. 378

    Quote
    I was taught and believe three forms of baptism.
    That's just plain heretical.
    Quote
    One Lord, one faith, one baptism. - Eph. 4:5

    The Nicene-Constantinople Creed, 381, ex cathedra: “We confess one baptism for the remission of sins.”[2]

    Pope St. Celestine I, Council of Ephesus, 431: “Having read these holy phrases and finding ourselves in agreement (for ‘there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism’ [Eph. 4:5]), we have given glory to God who is the savior of all…”[3]

    Pope St. Leo IX, Congratulamur Vehementer, April 13, 1053: “I believe that the one true Church is holy, Catholic and apostolic, in which is given one baptism and the true remission of all sins.”[4]

    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “One is my dove, my perfect one… which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God.  And in this, ‘one Lord, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5).”[5]

    Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:  “Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”[6]

    Pope Pius VI, Inscrutabile (# 8), Dec. 25, 1775: “… We exhort and advise you to be all of one mind and in harmony as you strive for the same object, just as the Church has one faith, one baptism, and one spirit.”[7]

    Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824: “By it we are taught, and by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and that no other name under heaven is given to men except the name of Jesus Christ in which we must be saved.  This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”[8]

    Pope Pius VIII, Traditi Humilitati (# 4), May 24, 1829: “Against these experienced sophists the people must be taught that the profession of the Catholic faith is uniquely true, as the apostle proclaims: one Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph. 4:5).”[9]

    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: “With the admonition of the apostle that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever.”[10]

    Pope Leo XIII, Graves de communi re (# 8), Jan. 18, 1901: “Hence the doctrine of the Apostle, who warns us that ‘We are one body and spirit called to the one hope in our vocation; one Lord, one faith and one baptism…”[11]

    https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/only-one-baptism-eph-4-5/

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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #38 on: September 22, 2022, 04:35:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on September 22, 2022, 04:17:53 PM
    Show me the dogma of the Church on Limbo.

    I'll explain it to you again, since you missed it the first time, or first two times.  There is no dogma about Limbo.  But there is a dogma that those who die even in Original Sin alone cannot enter Heaven.  It's also been dogmatically taught that the ONLY hope of infants is the Sacrament of Baptism.

    So your only choices are Limbo (held by nearly all theologians) or Hell (mostly abandoned, except for one or two here or there).
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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #39 on: September 22, 2022, 04:40:45 PM »
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    • Let's be careful not to fall into the trap of veering off into BOD now.   ;)
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #40 on: September 22, 2022, 04:50:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 22, 2022, 04:40:45 PM
    Let's be careful not to fall into the trap of veering off into BOD now.  ;)
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    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #41 on: September 22, 2022, 07:09:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on September 22, 2022, 04:17:53 PM
    Show me the dogma of the Church on Limbo.

    I was taught and believe three forms of baptism.  I also believe what I was taught about Limbo being closed after the resurrection and ascension.  I also believe it is not something we need to worry about if we take care to baptize as soon as is possible. 

    Condemning anyone is above my pay grade.

    I try to do the best I can and leave the rest to God.

    Well, in the Creed we have ONE Baptism, credo in unum baptisma.

    As for "what you were taught," you need to question who taught it to you.  You obviously misunderstood Limbo being "closed".  That's a reference to the Limbo of the Fathers.  Maybe you can believe what was taught by St. Thomas, if you'd take a moment to read the link.  Except that it's quite obvious that you "believe" what you WANT to believe.

    And yet again you pull out the sanctimonious nonsense about "condemning [anyone]".  Nobody's "condemning".  We're discussing the criteria for salvation.  When we say that no one who dies in a state of mortal sin can enter Heaven, that's a reference to a criterion for salvation and has nothing to do with "judgment".

    Yet all this is circuмlocution for the fact that you don't want to accept that infants who die without the Sacrament of Baptism cannot be saved, i.e. that you embrace Pelagianism.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #42 on: September 22, 2022, 10:20:47 PM »
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    • Q. 631. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
    A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Q. 632. Where will persons go who -- such as infants -- have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?
    A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven.

    Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
    A. There are three kinds of Baptism: 1.Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

    Q. 650. What is Baptism of desire?
    A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.

    Q. 651. What is Baptism of blood?
    A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood for the faith of Christ.

    Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?
    A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

    Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?
    A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

    Why can't an infant, who has yet to be born, desire to be baptized?
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #43 on: September 23, 2022, 05:46:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on September 22, 2022, 10:20:47 PM
    Q. 632. Where will persons go who -- such as infants -- have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?
    A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven.
    This question and answer I think is the key to answering this thread properly.  

    We know that at the end of time there is only heaven and hell.  We also know that those who have died without mortal sin on their souls don't have the normal suffering of hell but are deprived of the happiness of heaven. 

    Ergo...  It stands to reason that there must be a place in hell where those go who have not committed a mortal sin and are innocent except that they never received sanctifying grace.  They are kept from the presence of God but do not have to suffer as those do who lived terrible lives and committed mortal sins and deserve punishment.
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    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Adults In Limbo
    « Reply #44 on: September 23, 2022, 06:55:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on September 22, 2022, 10:20:47 PM
    Why can't an infant, who has yet to be born, desire to be baptized?
    With this question, I am now convinced that you be trolling.  Even Xavier and poche would never think to ask this question.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)
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