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Author Topic: 1962 Roman Missal  (Read 9897 times)

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Offline RonCal26

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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2012, 10:46:49 AM »
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  • The Canon can't be changed, I agree but remember that St. Pius X was one of the cardinals who wanted St. Joseph's name to be added in the Canon of the Mass (Source: the SSPX website).

    Because there are radical trads who think we should stick to the pre-1955 missal which I view as schismatic behavior.  I mean if Pius XII made changes, whether we like it or not... we have to follow it if those changes were made in official capacity as Bishop of Rome.

    I see nothing wrong with the 62 missal or the changes of 55.  To remove the 2nd Confiteor before the Communion of the Faithful is the prerogative of the Holy Father.  He has his say what non-essential things are to be removed from the Liturgy.  He can remove feasts that he feels has no place in the Liturgical calendar.  The Pope, in a political sense, is a dictator.  He needs no amendment from his inferiors to oppose his changes.  If he's in error, correct him but it would be improper for one to say the Holy Father cannot execute his Executive power as Supreme Governor of the Church.

    Sad to say, Msgr. Annibale Bugnini was appointed by this great pope to change parts of the Mass but not to worry----he was fired for being destructive by Pope John XXIII.  John XXIII wasn't fond of some of Pius XII's changes.  He restored the Latin Vulgate in place of the Pius XII Psalter.  

    Sadly Paul VI re-appointed Bugnini...
    I'm a Roman Catholic who upholds the sedevacantist position.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    « Reply #31 on: January 11, 2012, 10:53:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: RonCal26
    The Canon can't be changed, I agree but remember that St. Pius X was one of the cardinals who wanted St. Joseph's name to be added in the Canon of the Mass (Source: the SSPX website).

    Because there are radical trads who think we should stick to the pre-1955 missal which I view as schismatic behavior.  I mean if Pius XII made changes, whether we like it or not... we have to follow it if those changes were made in official capacity as Bishop of Rome.

    I see nothing wrong with the 62 missal or the changes of 55.  To remove the 2nd Confiteor before the Communion of the Faithful is the prerogative of the Holy Father.  He has his say what non-essential things are to be removed from the Liturgy.  He can remove feasts that he feels has no place in the Liturgical calendar.  The Pope, in a political sense, is a dictator.  He needs no amendment from his inferiors to oppose his changes.  If he's in error, correct him but it would be improper for one to say the Holy Father cannot execute his Executive power as Supreme Governor of the Church.

    Sad to say, Msgr. Annibale Bugnini was appointed by this great pope to change parts of the Mass but not to worry----he was fired for being destructive by Pope John XXIII.  John XXIII wasn't fond of some of Pius XII's changes.  He restored the Latin Vulgate in place of the Pius XII Psalter.  

    Sadly Paul VI re-appointed Bugnini...


     :confused1:

    You start off saying the Canon can't be changed, but then it is clear from what follows that you believe it can be changed.


    Offline RonCal26

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    « Reply #32 on: January 11, 2012, 11:00:33 AM »
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  • For me the Canon of the Mass is debatable.  Trad priests and laity opposed putting St. Joseph in the Canon but St. Pius X and John XXIII weren't opposed to it.  

    Sorry for my Mitt Romney position lol
    I'm a Roman Catholic who upholds the sedevacantist position.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    « Reply #33 on: January 11, 2012, 11:05:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: RonCal26
    For me the Canon of the Mass is debatable.  Trad priests and laity opposed putting St. Joseph in the Canon but St. Pius X and John XXIII weren't opposed to it.  

    Sorry for my Mitt Romney position lol


    Ok, at least you can see why I found your posts to be contradictory and confusing in parts.  :cheers:

    Offline RonCal26

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    « Reply #34 on: January 11, 2012, 11:37:08 AM »
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  • What is your name Roman Catholic?  I'm Ron by the way =)
    I'm a Roman Catholic who upholds the sedevacantist position.


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    « Reply #35 on: January 11, 2012, 11:56:10 AM »
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  • With St. Pacian I say:

    "My name is Christian, my surname is Catholic."

     :cheers:


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    « Reply #36 on: January 11, 2012, 10:50:12 PM »
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  • I found the infantile thumbing up and down respectively of the last 2 posts to be humorous in some ways.

    I wonder if the brave individual/s who did that would like to come on here, reveal their identity, and give us their reasoning.  :smirk:

    I love quoting the Saints.


    Here is St Pacian with the inclusion of a variation on the quote I gave earlier:

    But during the time of the apostles, you will say, no one used to be called "Catholic." So be it. It may have been so. I allow you even that. But when, after the apostles, heresies had appeared and were striving under various names to tear to pieces and split apart the Dove and the Queen of God, did not the apostolic people require a name of their own, by which they would mark the unity of an uncorrupted people, lest the error of some should tear limb from limb the undefiled virgin of God? Was it not right that the original [ecclesial] source be designated by its own particular appellation?

    (3) Suppose that this very day I entered a populous city. When I had found Marcionites, Apollinarians, Cataphrygians, Novatianists, and the rest of that kind who call themselves Christians, by what name should I recognize the congregation of my own people, unless it were called "Catholic"? Come now! Who has conferred so many names on these other groups? Why do so many cities, so many nations, each have their own defining designation? The same man who asks about the name "Catholic" will not himself be ignorant of the origin of his own name if I shall inquire about such. From where was the name "Catholic" bequeathed to me? Certainly that which has not fallen for so many ages was not borrowed from a man. This name "Catholic" does not ring of Marcion, nor of Apelles, nor of Montanus; nor does it take heretics as its originators.

    (4) Many things the Holy Spirit, whom God sent from heaven to the apostles as their comforter and guide, has taught us; many things reason teaches us, as Paul declares; and honesty, too, and, as he says, nature itself. And what now? Does the authority of the disciples of the apostles, of the earliest priests, of the most blessed martyr and teacher Cyprian, carry so little weight with us? Do we wish to teach the teacher? Are we wiser than he was, and are we roused by the spirit of the flesh against this man, whom the noble shedding of his own blood and the crown of his most glorious suffering have presented as a witness of the eternal God? What about the great number of priests on this, our side, who throughout the entire world were united in a single ecclesial community with this very same Cyprian? What about the great number of venerable bishops, of martyrs, of confessors? Come now, even if these were not adequate authorities for the use of this name, are we then adequate for its rejection? And shall the Fathers, instead, follow our authority; and the antiquity of the saints give way to our "corrections"; and our own times, which are already decaying through sin, scrape away the [wise] gray hair of apostolic antiquity?

    4. And yet, my brother, do not be troubled. "Christian" is my first name, and "Catholic" is my surname. The former term designates me; the latter distinguishes me from others. By one I am given sanction; by the other I am signified. And if, lastly, we must give an explanation of the word "Catholic" and extract it from the Greek by a Latin interpretation, "Catholic" means "one in every place" or perhaps, as our learned men think, it is said to mean "obedience in all things"-that is, in all the commandments of God. Whence the Apostle states, "If you are obedient in all things." And again, "For just as by the disobedience of one man many were made sinners, so, I declare, by the attention of one many will be made righteous." Therefore the person who is a Catholic, this same one is obedient. And the person who is obedient, this same one is a Christian. Thus, the Catholic is a Christian. Wherefore, our people, when they are designated as Catholic, are separated by this appellation from any heretical name.


    http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/servlet/org.oclc.lac.ui.DialABookServlet?oclcnum=38936613

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    « Reply #37 on: January 12, 2012, 12:29:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cupertino
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    Do you realize there were "changes" nevertheless, albeit small? That is what it said, and it was speaking of since the 7th century. I understand even a couple after 1570.



    If you think there have been changes made to the Canon of the Mass by the Church since the 7th century and even after 1570, then show us them please!


    I am largely going on a quote that you yourself provided here for us from the CE. What does "scarcely" mean to you, "not any"?



    It would help you to read the whole article.

    The changes that were scarcely made were not made by Popes.



    Yes, I see the Popes (after the 7th century & before 1570) didn't make those small changes. However, they did approve of some, though not making the changes themselves. Tacit approval is a very real thing for Holy Mother Church, so you can see my mind-frame in including popes in the changes, though they didn't make them themselves:

    Allatae Sunt, (1755):
    "It has also been confirmed either expressly or tacitly by the Apostolic See."

    Omnem Sollicitudinem (1874):
    "the liturgy of the Ruthenians can be no other than that which was either instituted by the holy fathers of the Church or ratified by the canons of synods or introduced by legitimate use, always with the express or tacit approval of the Apostolic See."

    Apostolicae Curae, (1896):
    "it was accordingly quite impossible that the Apostolic See should tacitly allow or tolerate such a custom."





    When the Church tolerates something that is not the same as giving tacit approval.

    I can't recall having read anything that says the Church ever gave tacit approval to any changes to the Canon after the time of Pope Gregory.

    Can you point us to some texts about this supposed tacit approval of changes to the Canon?


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    « Reply #38 on: January 12, 2012, 04:41:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cupertino
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    Do you realize there were "changes" nevertheless, albeit small? That is what it said, and it was speaking of since the 7th century. I understand even a couple after 1570.



    If you think there have been changes made to the Canon of the Mass by the Church since the 7th century and even after 1570, then show us them please!


    I am largely going on a quote that you yourself provided here for us from the CE. What does "scarcely" mean to you, "not any"?



    It would help you to read the whole article.

    The changes that were scarcely made were not made by Popes.



    Yes, I see the Popes (after the 7th century & before 1570) didn't make those small changes. However, they did approve of some, though not making the changes themselves. Tacit approval is a very real thing for Holy Mother Church, so you can see my mind-frame in including popes in the changes, though they didn't make them themselves:

    Allatae Sunt, (1755):
    "It has also been confirmed either expressly or tacitly by the Apostolic See."

    Omnem Sollicitudinem (1874):
    "the liturgy of the Ruthenians can be no other than that which was either instituted by the holy fathers of the Church or ratified by the canons of synods or introduced by legitimate use, always with the express or tacit approval of the Apostolic See."

    Apostolicae Curae, (1896):
    "it was accordingly quite impossible that the Apostolic See should tacitly allow or tolerate such a custom."





    When the Church tolerates something that is not the same as giving tacit approval.

    I can't recall having read anything that says the Church ever gave tacit approval to any changes to the Canon after the time of Pope Gregory.

    Can you point us to some texts about this supposed tacit approval of changes to the Canon?


    I don't need to. The point about a pope's power to change has already been mutually acknowledged. I will easily just concede there has been none. It doesn't really matter in view of the principles and the quotes given. It is too difficult for what it is worth to try to determine acknowledgements of change in the Mass to see whether the references are to the Canon or another part of the Mass.

    Toleration by silence by Holy Mother Church, when it comes to the liturgy, is called tacit approval, because the Church is holy and cannot allow anything harmful in the liturgies. If the Church knows of something in a liturgy, and says nothing, it is considered approval, though not necessarily preferential, it is still recognized by the Church as "a good" and not condemned. Or else the Church will condemn it. She will not tolerate something bad and harmful in the liturgies.





    To clarify, I never said that the name of St Joseph in the Canon is intrinsically evil or that the change is intrinsically evil. I was not arguing such. In fact I think it is obviouis that were either of those propositions correct, the earlier moves to add St Joseph would not have gotten anywhere; and also when it did happen in 1962 Catholics would have recognized the manifest evil and denounced it and John23.


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    « Reply #39 on: January 12, 2012, 04:57:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cupertino
    Quote from: RonCal26
    The Canon can't be changed, I agree but remember that St. Pius X was one of the cardinals who wanted St. Joseph's name to be added in the Canon of the Mass (Source: the SSPX website).


    I think that if St. Pius X was for it, it was his recognition that the Canon can be touched by a pope. That he didn't actually go through with it shows he realized God didn't want it.

    Quote from: RonCal26
    Because there are radical trads who think we should stick to the pre-1955 missal which I view as schismatic behavior.  I mean if Pius XII made changes, whether we like it or not... we have to follow it if those changes were made in official capacity as Bishop of Rome.


    Not radical at all, at least for the act itself. I find it in perfect conformance with the will of Pius XII to not follow any changes from 1955 to 1958. It is virtuous to believe he only made those changes for the emergency situation he was facing, and pious to believe his changes actually delayed Vatican II and mitigated it for us.

    What I don't like is any wrong reasoning behind rejecting those changes, such as if the claim is that the 50's changes were intrinsically bad. I think it may be fair to say they could be extrinsically harmful because extrinsic harm doesn't necessarily occur immediately, but over time. Explaining such a thing takes some care.






    While we are talking about taking care in explaining things, I will reiterate something else that RonCAl wrote.

    In 1897 Cardinal Sarto was one of the petitioners, but the thought process you applied to him applies Pius 1X who was reigning at the time of the petition.

    There have also been considerations about the rupture of a time honored tradition with regard to St Joseph being added to the Canon, even though he was not a martyr, but no need to go into all that now.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    « Reply #40 on: January 13, 2012, 04:37:01 PM »
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  • Doctrinally, nothing is wrong with it.

    But place it in a spectrum, with the 1954 (and earlier) missals on the left, and the 1969 Novus Ordo on the right, and you can see that by the time we get to 1962, much that once was has been lost.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    « Reply #41 on: January 13, 2012, 04:37:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Seraphim
    Doctrinally, nothing is wrong with it.

    But place it in a spectrum, with the 1954 (and earlier) missals on the left, and the 1969 Novus Ordo on the right, and you can see that by the time we get to 1962, much that once was has been lost.


    Deliberately.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline RonCal26

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    « Reply #42 on: January 14, 2012, 06:11:48 AM »
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  • Pope John XXIII's minor reform on the Roman Canon seems laudable but it was executed by a controversial pontiff and at the wrong time because the modification of the Liturgy's Eucharistic Prayer occurred prior to the Second Vatican Council's opening.

    If two Popes (one of whom is canonized saint) were not against adding St. Joseph to the Canon, then I think there should be no problem.

    I'm a Roman Catholic who upholds the sedevacantist position.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    « Reply #43 on: January 14, 2012, 10:07:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: RonCal26
    Pope John XXIII's minor reform on the Roman Canon seems laudable but it was executed by a controversial pontiff and at the wrong time because the modification of the Liturgy's Eucharistic Prayer occurred prior to the Second Vatican Council's opening.

    If two Popes (one of whom is canonized saint) were not against adding St. Joseph to the Canon, then I think there should be no problem.




    Actually the change took place during the V2 Robber Council.

    This gives a short account of what happened, as well as some interesting history that is relevant...

    On December 8, 1962, through the influence of the then nascent Robber Church,
    the Canon of the Mass, the ancient Roman Canon, was officially destroyed. With
    the insertion of the name of St. Joseph into it, a change which went into effect on
    that day, the "Canon" of the Mass ceased to be a canon. Derived from a Greek
    word meaning a rigid rod or rule, kanon, it is a thing, inflexible and unchangeable.
    By definition, therefore, the Canon of the Mass is unchangeable. Due to the
    emphasis many of us have recently placed upon the decree Quo Primum (1570)
    of Pope St. Pius V, which decree forbade in perpetuity any additions or changes
    whatsoever in the Roman Missal, under the penalty of incurring "the wrath of
    Almighty God, and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul," there are some who
    now harbor the incorrect notion that the Roman Canon dates only from the year
    of Quo Primum, 1570. In truth this Canon, which St. Pius V took the formidable
    measures of Quo Primum to protect from change, actually is substantially the
    same as that used by the Roman (or Western) Church from the very beginning;
    that is to say, it quite probably dates from apostolic times. It is believed that St.
    Gregory the Great (died A.D. 604) perhaps rearranged the order of certain
    prayers in the Canon; and this much is an absolute certainty: "Since the seventh
    century our Canon has remained unchanged." (Cath. Encyc., v.III, p.256). In
    The Question of Anglican Ordinations Discussed (London, Burns & Oates, 1873),
    the esteemed author E. E. Estcourt, then the canon of St. Chad's Cathedral,
    Birmingham, gives the following account:

    "What, then, is the Canon of the Mass? and what claims has it on our respect?
    Let us hear Sir William Palmer, as a writer whose testimony is beyond suspicion.
    After stating various facts and arguments on the subject, he says: 'Combining
    these circuмstances together, there seems nothing unreasonable in thinking that
    the Roman liturgy, as used in the time of Gregory the Great, may have existed
    from a period of the most remote antiquity; and perhaps there are nearly as good
    reasons for referring its original composition to the Apostolic age, as there are in
    the case of the great Oriental liturgy.'

    "The care taken to preserve the Canon in its original authentic form we learn from
    other writers. 'In ancient times,' says Muratori, 'although the liturgy of the Roman
    Mass was observed generally in the churches of Italy, France, Germany, Britain,
    and other countries, yet there was no small variety in their Missals; but this did
    not affect the substance of the mystery, or the chief and essential rites of the
    Mass. The difference ran in adding collects, sequences, and special feasts,
    which each Bishop might insert in his own missal. But to change the sacred
    words of the Canon was a crime.' By the laws of Charlemagne it was ordered
    that only men of full age should be employed to transcribe it; and the Councils of
    York and Oxford in the twelfth century decreed that the Archdeacon should
    examine in every church whether there were errors or defects in the Canon,
    either by the faults of transcribers or the books being old. Always too the Canon
    was written in different and larger characters than the rest, and sometimes in
    gold letters throughout, as an offering of reverence." (End of the quotation from
    Estcourt, pp. 279-280, emphasis added.)

    Since the apostolic origin of the Roman Canon is not a proven fact, let us
    consider only that period of history during which we are absolutely certain that it
    underwent no change whatever, not even a rearrangement of the prayers,
    namely, from the year 604 until the year 1962. From the time of Pope St.
    Gregory I up to the time of John XXIII there were one hundred ninety-seven (197)
    validly chosen sovereign pontiffs. Of these, twenty-three are venerated as saints
    and at least another five have been beatified. Neglecting the possible exceptions
    of some very few of these 197 popes who might possibly have been a little less
    than devout, we can safely claim that they all had a genuine devotion to St.
    Joseph, the chaste spouse of the Mother of God. Some of these popes
    bestowed signal honors upon St. Joseph. For example: Pope Gregory XV
    extended his feast to the universal Church; Pius IX in 1870 proclaimed him
    Protector of the universal Church; in 1937 the encyclical Divini Redemptoris,
    explaining and condemning Communism, was issued by Pope Pius XI on March
    l9th, the feastday of St. Joseph, and in its concluding paragraphs the Pontiff said:
    "We place the vast campaign of the Church against world Communism under the
    standard of St. Joseph, her mighty Protector." As a spiritual counter-move
    against the hallowed May Day of the Communists, a "feastday" they inherited
    directly from the conspiratorial illuminati (see Encyc. Britannica, vol.xiv, p.320, llth
    ed.), Pope Pius XII instituted on May Ist the feast of St. Joseph the Workman.

    As devoted to St. Joseph as were these 197 popes of this period spanning 1358
    years (fully 70% of the total lifetime of the Church thus far!), not one of them ever
    so much as dreamed of "honoring" him by laying hands on the sacred immutable
    Canon of the Mass. In point of fact -- and this is history -- in the year 1815 there
    was indeed a short-lived movement afoot which attempted to get the name of St.
    Joseph inserted into the Canon. This attempt (the first ancestor of the same
    identical movement circa 1962, which turned out to be successful), needless to
    say, was doomed to failure under the vigilant eyes of Pope Pius VII. In an 'Urbis
    et Orbis' decree of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, dated Sept. 16, 1815, the
    request was tersely and officially denied: "Negative quoad additionem nominis S.
    Josephi Sponsi B.M.V. in Canone.'' (See p.66, V.III, of Gardellini's compilation,
    1857, #4520.) On the eve of the Vatican Council (1870) the same campaign was
    once again renewed, and once again the vigilant Shepherd of Rome (this time it
    was Pius IX) turned thumbs down on it. Apparently these earlier popes
    understood not only the meaning of the word canon, but also the awful warning
    of Quo Primum. And they also doubtlessly were not ignorant of how the
    conspiring enemies of he Church will often utilize seemingly "good" causes as
    opening wedges to attain, ultimately, nefarious ends.

    What happened very early during Vatican II is only too well known. In a nutshell:
    what no one of his 197 immediate predecessors had done, and two very astute
    ones had outright rejected, John XXIII carried out. An account is given on pp.
    44-6 of The Rhine Flows Into the Tiber, by Rev. Ralph M. Wiltgen, S.V.D.,
    Hawthorn Books, 1967. In mid-March 1962, Pope John received six volumes of
    signed petitions, including signatures of cardinals, patriarchs, bishops and
    archbishops, asking for the name of St. Joseph to be inserted into the Canon of
    the Mass. "While examining these signatures, Pope John said, 'Something will
    be done for St.Joseph."' (p.46). On Oct. 30, Auxiliary Bishop Ildefonso Sansierra
    of San Juan de Cuyo, Argentina, released the first trial balloon when, from the
    Council floor, expressed the hope that the inclusion of the name of St. Joseph in
    the Canon of the Mass "would not be forgotten.'' (p.45).

    There was not a bit of
    noticeable resistance to this first trial balloon. And so, on Nov. 5, "the same
    request was made at great length by Bishop Albert Cousineau of Cap Haitien,
    Haiti, ... who asked that 'the name of Blessed Joseph, Spouse of the Blessed
    Virgin Mary, be introduced into the mass wherever the name of the Blessed
    Virgin Mary is mentioned.'"(pp. 44-5). Still no opposition. Eight days later, on
    Nov. 13, the Cardinal Secretary of State made a special announcement that the
    Holy Father had decided to insert the name of St. Joseph in the Canon of the
    Mass, immediately after the name of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and that the
    change would go into effect almost immediately, that is, on Dec. 8th. "Cardinal
    Montini later described this unexpected (??!) move as 'a surprise for the Council
    from the Pope.''' (p.45).

    As stated earlier, the Roman Canon was destroyed on December 8, 1962; but
    only "officially," for there will always be some loyal priests who will adhere to it in
    its integrity. What the Robber Church has is no 'canon' at all. In fact it eschews
    the very word canon; since 1968 it has had four so-called "Eucharistic Prayers,"
    none of which is a true canon. Once the inflexible, unchangeable rigid rule, the
    Roman Canon, was changed -- in the Robber Church version of it --, it ceased,
    by definition, to be a canon for them. And the foot was in the door. But little time
    elapsed before the avalanche of changes came in the "canon," including an
    "aggiornamentoed" and spurious "consecration formula" in most of the various
    vernacular versions of it.


    One cannot impugn the motives of all of those persons who petitioned for this
    innovation, for many of them undoubtedly acted from motives of sincere devotion
    to St. Joseph. Neither can one judge the intentions of Pope John, especially
    since his aged brain was probably then being fed many an idea pre-programmed
    by his trusted advisors. But all these devotees of St. Joseph were woefully
    ignorant of history, and of the true designs of those working behind the scenes.
    Where, by the way, are these pious devotees of St. Joseph today? Why do we
    hear no outcries from them? The only purpose of the sinister parties of influence,
    who secretly steered this project to success, was to launch the destruction of the
    Mass. What they needed was the opening wedge to get to the sacred and
    immutable Canon, a feat never before accomplished. They had no interest in St.
    Joseph then, and they still have none! Now, how can such an "outlandish"
    charge be proved? Quite easily; and here is the tell-tale evidence. If their
    devotion to St. Joseph is so conspicuous then why is it that in three out of four -
    75%- of their new Eucharistic Prayers the name of St. Joseph is conspicuously
    absent??? Have you heard any outcries about this from these "devotees" of St.
    Joseph?? No indeed; paying honor to St. Joseph wasn't it at all! And there are
    some who, in eternity, will more than likely pay dearly for their mockery of him.    

    Excerpted from: Robber Church" (Part 2) Patrick Henry Omlor, Interdum. Issue No. 7, May 31, 1971


    Offline RonCal26

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    1962 Roman Missal
    « Reply #44 on: January 14, 2012, 10:50:08 AM »
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  • I find the controversy on the Eucharistic Prayer for our Divine Liturgy to be complicated when you have Popes St. Pius X & John XXIII who wanted to make this small addition.

    I'm a Roman Catholic who upholds the sedevacantist position.