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Author Topic: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?  (Read 3970 times)

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Offline Matto

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Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2021, 04:07:20 PM »
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  • The question of Holy Week is separate from the question of the New Mass.  2 different popes, 2 different liturgical changes, 2 different legal docuмents.  If you can't answer the 1955 liturgical question without referencing a different liturgical question, then your reasons/arguments aren't strong.
    They were both massive changes done by the same committee of modernists headed by a Freemason imposed top-down by the Pope and largely hated by many of the laymen who attended those services. Your argument in favor of the 55 holy week can be used just as strongly in favor of the Novus Ordo if you are not a sede. All it is is "the pope said so" while for the Novus Ordo you reject the same argument that "the pope said so" except you add the dishonesty of saying, "well, the Pope did not really say so legally so we can ignore the fact that the Pope said so, imposed the Novus Ordo in a draconian way on the whole church, and persecuted those who were attached to the old mass. Paul VI did not dot every I or cross every T so we can ignore what he said and did."
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #16 on: February 11, 2021, 04:12:09 PM »
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  • 1.  I do not intend to start an anti-sede feud.  Most people on this thread (at least 2Vermont should know because we've debated many times) that I'm partial to many sede arguments.  So i'm making an honest attempt at civil debate.
    .
    2.  "Massively altered" is not the same thing as "essentially" altered.  Pope St Pius X massively altered the breviary but the essence of it was not changed.  The new Holy Week, in the opinion of many Trad clerics, is not perfect but it's also not substantially different.
    .
    3.  An argument can be made that the Holy Week rites are more human/church created than divinely inspired (i.e. they aren't the mass).  The liturgy (outside of the essential, Apostolic parts of the Mass) organically developed over the centuries.  It can be changed quite a bit, in theory.
    Pax, I mean no disrespect, but do you have any idea of what was changed? It is was profoundly altered! I started a thread recommending a book I just finished, Born of Revolution by Dr. Carol Byrne. I have read many books on the changes of the common Mass, but this book goes through minute detail of the changes in Holy Week, and it is astonishing. Comparing Pope St Pius X's changes to this is dismissive without knowing the real differences of the two examples. It was without a doubt substantial in difference. 
    There has been a significant movement from quite a few camps to the pre 1955. The only sedes that accept the 1955 are the CMRI and very few independent priests. All of the SSPV, all the SGG, all of the ICKSP, some of the FSSP, and quite a few independent priests, 2 of which I receive the sacraments from from time to time (non sede), say the pre 1955. 
    The acceptance of the 1962 missal is an accident of history. It was decided by +Lefebrve as a concession to the conciliar hierarchy. The 1962 missal was only in official use for about 2 years. Most of the SSPX outside of France before the 1980's said the pre 1955. 
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #17 on: February 11, 2021, 04:13:27 PM »
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  • Matto,
    The similarities you cite are circuмstantial.  The differences in gravity are huge.  The 1955 changes neither affect the mass nor any sacrament.  The new mass affects both the mass and the sacrament.  The true question comes down to liturgical law and sacramental theology.  Since the 1955 changes don't affect sacramental theology, the question only comes down to liturgical law.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #18 on: February 11, 2021, 04:18:11 PM »
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  • Quote
    but this book goes through minute detail of the changes in Holy Week, and it is astonishing.

    Ok, but it's not a change to the missal nor a sacrament.  So, it's not a change to anything of Divine origin.  So, it's a change to a human part of the liturgy, which the Church is allowed to do (for better or worse).  Christ gave St Peter the power to "bind and loose".  In all things non-Divine, the pope can change things.  Just like Pope St Pius X massively overhauled the breviary (in all non-essential, non-divine areas).

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #19 on: February 11, 2021, 04:21:43 PM »
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  • Ok, but it's not a change to the missal nor a sacrament.  So, it's not a change to anything of Divine origin.  So, it's a change to a human part of the liturgy, which the Church is allowed to do (for better or worse).  Christ gave St Peter the power to "bind and loose".  In all things non-Divine, the pope can change things.  Just like Pope St Pius X massively overhauled the breviary (in all non-essential, non-divine areas).
    Wow...just.. wow....
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #20 on: February 11, 2021, 04:27:08 PM »
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  • I thought that Quo Primum forbid the introduction of New Rites into the existing Missal. The new Holy Week is exactly that.

    We have a winner!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #21 on: February 11, 2021, 04:34:25 PM »
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  • The question of Holy Week is separate from the question of the New Mass.  2 different popes, 2 different liturgical changes, 2 different legal docuмents.  If you can't answer the 1955 liturgical question without referencing a different liturgical question, then your reasons/arguments aren't strong.

    Hogwash:

    Same process of liturgical destruction began initially with Dialogue Masses; same liturgists; same suppression of immemorial rites; same invention of shotty replacement rites.

    From Dialogue Mass to experimental Holy Week to Novus Ordo = one continuous process and ʀɛʋօʟutιօn.

    PS: The Pian/Bugnini Holy Week rites were only around for 14 years by the time the Novus Ordo came around.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #22 on: February 11, 2021, 04:49:56 PM »
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  • I thought that Quo Primum forbid the introduction of New Rites into the existing Missal. The new Holy Week is exactly that. It is as much against the law as what you state about the 1969.
    Pius XII did not "slightly change" Holy Week. From Palm Sunday to Easter Vigil, it was massively altered.
    The Holy Week changes were not a "New Rite".  It was a change to an existing rite.


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #23 on: February 11, 2021, 05:04:12 PM »
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  • Pax, I mean no disrespect, but do you have any idea of what was changed? It is was profoundly altered! I started a thread recommending a book I just finished, Born of ʀɛʋօʟutιօn by Dr. Carol Byrne. I have read many books on the changes of the common Mass, but this book goes through minute detail of the changes in Holy Week, and it is astonishing. Comparing Pope St Pius X's changes to this is dismissive without knowing the real differences of the two examples. It was without a doubt substantial in difference.
    Should someone ask if you are you aware of the changes in the breviary?

    This topic has been discussed at least once a year for decades. I'm sure everyone with some interest in the liturgy, including Pax, knows what was changed in holy week. (I get the impression not everyone knows what was changed in the breviary, though.)

    Quote
    The acceptance of the 1962 missal is an accident of history. It was decided by +Lefebrve as a concession to the conciliar hierarchy.

    No, "concession" is not the right word. The archbishop used the revised holy week because 1) the pope required it, and 2) it was not a danger to the faith.

    In contrast, the archbishop did not accept the N.O.M. because it was a danger to the faith.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #24 on: February 11, 2021, 05:10:15 PM »
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  • Interesting excerpt from a longer article of Michael Davies rebutting a priest, who claimed a pope can altar the 1570 missal, just as several other popes had:

    "I have already accepted that Quo Primum did not preclude subsequent popes from revising the Missal, but not one of the popes cited by Father Hinwood introduced a single change which affected the ethos of the traditional Missal in any way at all. On the eve of Vatican II the Missal used within the Roman Rite was clearly and unmistakably the Missal of St. Pius V [even Holy Week?], the Ordinary of the Mass was identical, final blessing included! I own a Missal printed in 1577 and have verified this. I have already analyzed the alleged revisions mentioned by Father Hinwood; they are cited frequently by apologists for the liturgical ʀɛʋօʟutιօn (PPNM, pp. 10-13). I have also included the full texts of the more important docuмents in Appendix II to Pope Paul's New Mass.

    Father Hinwood cites the "reform" of Pope Clement VIII as a precedent for changing the missal. Read the Brief cuм Sanctissimum and you will find that this Pope's principal concern was that changes made in the Missal in defiance of Quo Primum should be corrected, and that, apart from some minor rubrical improvements, the Missal should be restored in every respect to the text authorized by St. Pius V. He commanded that Missals which deviated from the text published by St. Pius V "be banned and declared null and void and that their use be disallowed in the celebration of the Mass, unless they be entirely and in everything emended according to the original text published under Pius V." How can Father Hinwood possibly expect to be taken seriously after citing Pope Clement VIII's reform of the Missal as a precedent for the ʀɛʋօʟutιօn of Pope Paul VI? He presumes, no doubt, that few if any of his readers will so much as heard of, let alone read, cuм Sanctissimum, or any of the docuмents relating to his list of "revisions." I suspect very strongly that he has not read them himself. "Pope Pius X brought in revisions," he claims. Quite true—he changed the musical notation! "Pope Leo XIII added the prayers to be recited at the end of a said Mass." He did, indeed, but this did not affect the text of the Mass in any way at all. Does Father Hinwood seriously expect us to accept that the recitation of the Leonine Prayers after a Low Mass provides a legitimate precedent for the ʀɛʋօʟutιօnary onslaught upon the Roman Missal which gave Father Gelineau ample justification for claiming that the Roman Rite had been destroyed?" http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=741 

    Question regarding the bolded font above:

    Did Pius XII/Bugnini "introduce a single change which affected the ethos of the traditional Missal in any way at all."

    Many (such as Fr. Stefano Carusi) would affirm the drastic and ʀɛʋօʟutιօnary nature of the changes, such as: Introducing the versus populum posture; introducing the vernacular; introducing carrying the sacred action into the body of the church; washing the feet of laymen; moving the vigil from daytime to evening; introducing congregational prayer; Communion on Good Friday; and doing all this on the basis of an archaeologism which Pius XII had just condemned a few years earlier.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #25 on: February 11, 2021, 05:13:47 PM »
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  • The Holy Week changes were not a "New Rite".  It was a change to an existing rite.

    Nope.

    It was a Novus Ordo.  

    Anyone attending Palm Sunday, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, or the Easter Vigil until 1951 would have been very confused in 1956 (and would have missed the Vigil altogether).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #26 on: February 11, 2021, 05:14:39 PM »
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  •  

    Question regarding the bolded font above:

    Did Pius XII/Bugnini "introduce a single change which affected the ethos of the traditional Missal in any way at all."

    Many (such as Fr. Stefano Carusi) would affirm the drastic and ʀɛʋօʟutιօnary nature of the changes, such as: Introducing the versus populum posture; introducing the vernacular; introducing carrying the sacred action into the body of the church; washing the feet of laymen; moving the vigil from daytime to evening; introducing congregational prayer; Communion on Good Friday; and doing all this on the basis of an archaeologism which Pius XII had just condemned a few years earlier.
    Bravo.  
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #27 on: February 11, 2021, 05:17:06 PM »
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  • No, "concession" is not the right word. The archbishop used the revised holy week because 1) the pope required it, and 2) it was not a danger to the faith.

    In contrast, the archbishop did not accept the N.O.M. because it was a danger to the faith.

    Not so sure the changes to Holy week were not a danger to the faith.  In this article, Dr. Byrne cites cardinals and the famous novelist Evelyn Waugh as making precisely that argument:
    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f089_Dialogue_14.htm


    Divisive reforms

    Msgr. Leon Gromier, a bitter and outspoken enemy of the 1955 Holy Week reforms

    It is not generally appreciated just how controversial the 1951-1955 Holy Week reforms were in their day. Historical records exist to show that they were vehemently criticized by many Bishops, priests and lay people on account of the radical nature of the changes then initiated.

    Among the most outspoken critics was Msgr. Léon Gromier, a distinguished Prelate of the Papal Household and a Canon of St. Peter’s Basilica. As a consulter to the Congregation of Rites since the time of Pope Pius X, he was in a position to speak with authority on the Holy Week ceremonies. His knowledge was legendary on all liturgical subjects from bugia to buskins and falbalas to faldstools, which made him the strongest of advocates for arguing the case for the traditional rites.

    Msgr. Gromier, who had been publicly criticizing the Liturgical Movement since 1936, gave a conference in Paris in 1960. (5) (See here) In it he excoriated the 1955 Holy Week reforms, exposing the false liturgical science and the false reasoning behind them.

    He did not hesitate to describe them as an “act of vandalism,” “an immense loss and an outrage to history,” “the negation of reasoned principles” and the product of a “pastoral mentality impregnated with a populist attitude, unfavorable to the clergy.” With reference to the liturgists who produced the reforms, he lamented that their “discretionary powers are vast, as are the abuses.”

    Objections from Bishops (6) to the interim Holy Week changes of 1951 poured into the Vatican with requests to leave the traditional rites intact. The final and obligatory reform of 1955 was vigorously opposed by more Bishops, for instance Card. Francis Spellman of New York and Arch. John Charles McQuaid of Dublin (on the grounds that it might destabilize the faith of the Irish people). (7)

    Among the laity, the Catholic newspapers of 1955-1956 were rife with objections. (8) The novelist, Evelyn Waugh, who had converted to Catholicism, considered the changes ruinous to his spiritual life and a danger to the faith itself, particularly among simple folk. (9)
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #28 on: February 11, 2021, 05:18:04 PM »
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  • Nope.

    It was a Novus Ordo.  

    Anyone attending Palm Sunday, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, or the Easter Vigil until 1951 would have been very confused in 1956 (and would have missed the Vigil altogether).
    I agree that there were changes, but it's not like the whole missal was revamped into a New Rite ...like the 1969 Rite.  

    When I say New Rite, I'm talking about a New Rite like the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration (compared to the Old Rite).

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: 1955 Holy Week-Why accept it?
    « Reply #29 on: February 11, 2021, 05:38:26 PM »
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  • I agree that there were changes, but it's not like the whole missal was revamped into a New Rite ...like the 1969 Rite.  

    When I say New Rite, I'm talking about a New Rite like the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration (compared to the Old Rite).

    OK, well I guess we will disagree again.

    I simply note that it is not so much the visible changes in a missal which signify the emergence of a new rite, but the liturgical principles which undergird the changes.

    I note that the Dominican and Latin rites are very similar, yet comprise distinct rites.

    Conversely, according to you, the pre-1951 and 1955/6 holy week rites are the same rite, but with some changes.

    But if I analyze the liturgical principles underpinning the changes to the revised holy week (and the fact these rites had first to gain covert approval, than provisional approval as an experiment, with changes concocted on the spot (or appealing to condemned archaeologism), I begin to perceive that what in fact is attempting to pass as the same rite is in fact another rite altogether, with these modernist principles being the very same antiliturgical principles which formed the Novus Ordo (it was just hidden under Latin and incense):

    Introducing the vernacular; introducing the versus populum posture; introducing congregational vocal prayer; carrying the liturgical action into the body of the church; washing the feet of laymen (we are priests too!); changing vigils from daytime to evening; the suppression of vestments (broad stole); introducing communion on Good Friday; etc.  All of this betrays a liturgical thinking which is quite at odds with the Missal of 1570.

    For these reasons, I say Bugnini/Pius XII introduced a Novus Ordo of holy Week.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."