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Author Topic: "traditional" catholics...  (Read 2516 times)

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Offline ingenting

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"traditional" catholics...
« on: August 02, 2012, 03:03:13 AM »
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  • When we talk about "traditional" Catholics we often mean Latin Catholics. Doesn't this create a problem? I mean, is it really good to only discuss the NO Mass and the differenttraditional Latin Masses and just never really speak about the other Catholics Rites and their traditions?


    Offline Nadir

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    "traditional" catholics...
    « Reply #1 on: August 02, 2012, 04:40:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: ingenting
    When we talk about "traditional" Catholics we often mean Latin Catholics. Doesn't this create a problem? I mean, is it really good to only discuss the NO Mass and the differenttraditional Latin Masses and just never really speak about the other Catholics Rites and their traditions?


    Most of us here are directly concerned with the Latin rite. Did you have any particular rite in mind that you wish to discuss?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Roland Deschain

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    "traditional" catholics...
    « Reply #2 on: August 02, 2012, 05:27:22 AM »
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  • From what I can see, none of the other Sui iuris Churches have seen it necessary to destroy their own Patrimony like we have. That being said I will note that modernist ideas and a fawning love for the Eastern Schismatics seems to permeate a lot of Eastern Catholic circles.

    Offline Scriptorium

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    "traditional" catholics...
    « Reply #3 on: August 02, 2012, 07:47:54 AM »
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  • I think in general the Catholic viewpoint should be widened. I have been amazed that some "traditional" Catholics did not know there were many rites of the Church, some quite foreign to us, like Mass in Arabic. Also some of those rite have experienced a Vatican II effect, and in those rites there are debates about tradition and authenticity. An example is in the Syro-Malabar church in which is debated the Latinization of their rites, and the subsequent reforms under Pius XII. They have unique debates, but sometimes similar themes. Sacrosanctum Concilium was for the Roman Rite only, but it influenced some to voluntarily adopt some of the reforms. We can have both: discussing our unique situation, and also widening out to look at general circuмstances in the whole Church.

    Offline ingenting

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    "traditional" catholics...
    « Reply #4 on: August 02, 2012, 06:34:13 PM »
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  • I really think FSSPX should start talking about the other rites as well,not just the Latin rites. I think that many Oriental/Eastern Catholics/Orthodoxes don't like FSSPX for this reason.  We have SSJK but how good are they? They have a very bad reputation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Society_of_Saint_Josaphat


    Quote from: Roland Deschain
    That being said I will note that modernist ideas and a fawning love for the Eastern Schismatics seems to permeate a lot of Eastern Catholic circles.

    Someof them even think that the Orthodox have valid Confessions and that the Catholic FSSPX doesn't.  This is just how bad the situation is.


    Quote from: Roland Deschain
    From what I can see, none of the other Sui iuris Churches have seen it necessary to destroy their own Patrimony like we have.

    Many Byzantine Priests who celebrate the beautiful Divine Liturgy rather choose the NO than the TLM. This is just so strange.
    Many Eastern/Oriental Catholics actually destroyed their rites. Just take the Maronite rite as an example. Many "traditional" Maronites just hates how it's celebrated nowadays. I've attended a modernistic Maronite Mass, aka NO for the Maronites, and it was terrible.
    and if you attend a Melkite Divine Liturgy they may use Hosts from the NO rites instead of real Byzantine bread/hosts.


    Offline Pius IX

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    "traditional" catholics...
    « Reply #5 on: August 02, 2012, 07:14:04 PM »
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  • I know a couple of Easter Rite (traditional) Catholics. Rejecting the conciliar novelties, heresies, and errors is not an occidental thing.

    Offline Sigismund

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    "traditional" catholics...
    « Reply #6 on: August 02, 2012, 08:36:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: ingenting
    I really think FSSPX should start talking about the other rites as well,not just the Latin rites. I think that many Oriental/Eastern Catholics/Orthodoxes don't like FSSPX for this reason.  We have SSJK but how good are they? They have a very bad reputation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Society_of_Saint_Josaphat


    Quote from: Roland Deschain
    That being said I will note that modernist ideas and a fawning love for the Eastern Schismatics seems to permeate a lot of Eastern Catholic circles.

    Someof them even think that the Orthodox have valid Confessions and that the Catholic FSSPX doesn't.  This is just how bad the situation is.


    Quote from: Roland Deschain
    From what I can see, none of the other Sui iuris Churches have seen it necessary to destroy their own Patrimony like we have.

    Many Byzantine Priests who celebrate the beautiful Divine Liturgy rather choose the NO than the TLM. This is just so strange.
    Many Eastern/Oriental Catholics actually destroyed their rites. Just take the Maronite rite as an example. Many "traditional" Maronites just hates how it's celebrated nowadays. I've attended a modernistic Maronite Mass, aka NO for the Maronites, and it was terrible.
    and if you attend a Melkite Divine Liturgy they may use Hosts from the NO rites instead of real Byzantine bread/hosts.


    If I may ask, where have you seen this among Melkites?  No Byzantine priest should be using hosts to celebrate the Liturgy at any time.  Eucharistic bread should be leavened in the Byzantine rite.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline ingenting

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    « Reply #7 on: August 03, 2012, 03:57:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund

    If I may ask, where have you seen this among Melkites?  No Byzantine priest should be using hosts to celebrate the Liturgy at any time.  Eucharistic bread should be leavened in the Byzantine rite.

    I think they do it here in Sweden. Are you saying that this Divine Liturgy is illicit?


    Offline Roland Deschain

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    « Reply #8 on: August 03, 2012, 05:12:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: ingenting
    I really think FSSPX should start talking about the other rites as well,not just the Latin rites. I think that many Oriental/Eastern Catholics/Orthodoxes don't like FSSPX for this reason.  We have SSJK but how good are they? They have a very bad reputation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Society_of_Saint_Josaphat


    Quote from: Roland Deschain
    That being said I will note that modernist ideas and a fawning love for the Eastern Schismatics seems to permeate a lot of Eastern Catholic circles.

    Someof them even think that the Orthodox have valid Confessions and that the Catholic FSSPX doesn't.  This is just how bad the situation is.


    Quote from: Roland Deschain
    From what I can see, none of the other Sui iuris Churches have seen it necessary to destroy their own Patrimony like we have.

    Many Byzantine Priests who celebrate the beautiful Divine Liturgy rather choose the NO than the TLM. This is just so strange.
    Many Eastern/Oriental Catholics actually destroyed their rites. Just take the Maronite rite as an example. Many "traditional" Maronites just hates how it's celebrated nowadays. I've attended a modernistic Maronite Mass, aka NO for the Maronites, and it was terrible.
    and if you attend a Melkite Divine Liturgy they may use Hosts from the NO rites instead of real Byzantine bread/hosts.


    I don't understand your reasoning. With our own Latin Church in ruins, why should the SSPX shift its focus to a bunch of Sui iuris Churches that, for the most part, look at us as schismatics and the "Orthodox" as part of the Church?

    They have their own problems and don't seem too concerned about ours. As a matter of fact, a lot of Eastern Catholics are refugees from the Vatican II wasteland. I can't hardly blame them I suppose. If my choice was a Novus Ordo or a Byzantine Church, I would become Eastern Catholic. I have actually had to make that choice in my life. Thankfully attending the traditional mass is no longer a matter of great inconvenience for myself.

    As for the ethnic Eastern Catholics, they seem to have no problem with the Vatican II religion. In many ways, they embrace it. They love Rome's new approach to the Eastern Schismatics and are big fans of JPII. If you want to see this in action, there is a very popular Byzantine Catholic website and forum. Check out the love for the Eastern Schismatics and the contempt that traditional Catholics are held in. Check out the lo They also have no love for traditional Roman Catholics. I suppose we are suppose to sit down and shut-up as our Church crumbles.

    Listen to this podcast from an Orthodox site. It is an interview with a Melkite Catholic priest. Sheds some light on the cozy, cozy feelings that Eastern Catholics have for Schismatics.

    http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/eastern_catholics_are_they_orthodox


    Offline Belloc

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    "traditional" catholics...
    « Reply #9 on: August 03, 2012, 08:27:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: ingenting
    When we talk about "traditional" Catholics we often mean Latin Catholics. Doesn't this create a problem? I mean, is it really good to only discuss the NO Mass and the differenttraditional Latin Masses and just never really speak about the other Catholics Rites and their traditions?


    for most Catholics, they either are ignorant or dont care about other Rites......I for yrs, though always a Latin, attend a Ruthanian Byzantine Catholic Church......my parents and I were founding members when the other Latin Churches in my area were a mess........parents stopped attending the SSPX after 1988 as they were not sure if they were allowed to or not, a lot of confusion at that time.....I was 16, so was not sure at all.....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #10 on: August 03, 2012, 08:29:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roland Deschain
    From what I can see, none of the other Sui iuris Churches have seen it necessary to destroy their own Patrimony like we have. That being said I will note that modernist ideas and a fawning love for the Eastern Schismatics seems to permeate a lot of Eastern Catholic circles.


    I know people in Eastern Rite and since V2, they appear to be obsessed with ecuмenism and blending with Orthodox schismatics......that said, they have maintained their liturgies and practices, no need for a "new" alternative rite-within-a-rite....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #11 on: August 03, 2012, 08:31:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Quote from: ingenting
    I really think FSSPX should start talking about the other rites as well,not just the Latin rites. I think that many Oriental/Eastern Catholics/Orthodoxes don't like FSSPX for this reason.  We have SSJK but how good are they? They have a very bad reputation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Society_of_Saint_Josaphat


    Quote from: Roland Deschain
    That being said I will note that modernist ideas and a fawning love for the Eastern Schismatics seems to permeate a lot of Eastern Catholic circles.

    Someof them even think that the Orthodox have valid Confessions and that the Catholic FSSPX doesn't.  This is just how bad the situation is.


    Quote from: Roland Deschain
    From what I can see, none of the other Sui iuris Churches have seen it necessary to destroy their own Patrimony like we have.

    Many Byzantine Priests who celebrate the beautiful Divine Liturgy rather choose the NO than the TLM. This is just so strange.
    Many Eastern/Oriental Catholics actually destroyed their rites. Just take the Maronite rite as an example. Many "traditional" Maronites just hates how it's celebrated nowadays. I've attended a modernistic Maronite Mass, aka NO for the Maronites, and it was terrible.
    and if you attend a Melkite Divine Liturgy they may use Hosts from the NO rites instead of real Byzantine bread/hosts.


    If I may ask, where have you seen this among Melkites?  No Byzantine priest should be using hosts to celebrate the Liturgy at any time.  Eucharistic bread should be leavened in the Byzantine rite.


    true, it is cut in squares and spooned out, mixed with Blood, on the tongue (thus, cutting out communion in the hand  :applause: :applause: )
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #12 on: August 03, 2012, 08:33:10 AM »
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  • of note, too, I used to know some Catholics-young and old-that attended the Byzantine chapel I went to, but prior to or after, went to the latin, as they were not sure that the ER was a valid Mass for Sunday obligation!!!
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #13 on: August 03, 2012, 10:46:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roland Deschain
    From what I can see, none of the other Sui iuris Churches have seen it necessary to destroy their own Patrimony like we have. That being said I will note that modernist ideas and a fawning love for the Eastern Schismatics seems to permeate a lot of Eastern Catholic circles.


    Your post reminds me of my visit to a Coptic Orthodox church about a year ago,
    when there were Moslems in the news having riots in Egypt. I wanted to get a
    pulse on the attitude held by American Christians who have relatives and friends
    in Egypt. I was surprised to find this "fawning love" you speak of. Everyone I was
    able to hear said the same thing, that Moslems are good people, and some of their
    friends are Moselms, and that they have extended family members who have
    married into Moslem families. Curiously, I was unable to find anyone who knew of
    a Moslem woman who had married a Christian man. It's always a Christian woman
    who married a Moslem man, and then not only did she convert to become a Moslem
    herself, but sometimes she finds herself on the lowest rung of a ladder, as it were,
    other rungs being other wives!

    The principle attack against the Church has always been on the Roman Rite. Over
    the centuries, the Pope has stood in the way of the devil's assaults. It was the
    primary goal of Freemasons to put one of their own in the throne of St. Peter. Once
    their corruption took hold in the Vatican, the Mass could be attacked. The Mass was
    target number two. Then, with one and two somewhat under control, their attack
    can fan out to all the other offices and earmarks of the Church. Meanwhile,
    Catholics are becoming less aware of the problem, as if their minds are obscured
    by a "black fog" of unknowing. In many ways, those who call themselves Catholic
    today are functionally ignorant of what the Church teaches. In saner times, they
    would be "heretics," but in these days, they simply don't know any better, and
    if someone tries to teach them, it quickly becomes evident that they are not able
    to learn the lesson material. There is an element of will involved, supported by the
    fact that they have heard a priest, or several priests, tell them the opposite of
    what this someone is trying to teach them.

    We are now in the second half of the century of the demise of Catholicism. It was
    60 or 70 years ago that it got started, but certainly 50 years ago. You can pretty
    much peg it to 1960 when the tide changed direction. In 1960 there was no such
    thing as a "traditional Catholic," because all Catholics were traditional. When a
    Catholic stopped being traditional, he was then suddenly a "fallen-away Catholic."

    The term, fallen-away Catholic, was in common use before Vatican II. And then
    with Lumen Gentium 8, and "The Church of Christ ... subsists in the Catholic
    Church," it suddenly became popular to say that "You see, there IS salvation
    outside the Church." Vatican II did not have to proclaim that. All "the Council"
    needed to say is that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church, and
    word of mouth spread the heresy that there is salvation outside the Church. That
    was the end of the phrase "fallen-away Catholic."

    That's how it happened.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #14 on: August 03, 2012, 09:56:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat


    The principle attack against the Church has always been on the Roman Rite.  


    This is certainly true, if for no other reason that it is by far the largest.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir