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Author Topic: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II  (Read 1622 times)

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Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2019, 11:56:30 PM »
Byzcat, doctrinal matters require no interpretation because they are written and intended to be simple and clear.
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V2 was not doctrinal, so it is fallible, (not to mention contradictory and ambiguous).  Thus it needs interpretation.  You can’t read the docuмents only; you have to listen to what officials have said regarding both its nature and its legal requirements.
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Officials have REPEATEDLY said that the sspx (and by extension, all Trads and all Catholics) is not schismatic, not heretical and not disobedient for questioning V2.  Regardless of what this sentence or that sentence says in the council docuмents, the final say on the matter is from Rome.  And the conclusion is that V2 can be questioned.  Period.  Has nothing to do with disobedience.  You’re just parroting what many sedes argue, and this comes from their private interpretation.  It has no basis in reality.
Doctrinal matters definitely can require interpretation.  There isn't a consensus, for instance, on how far exactly Vatican I says a true pope cannot err.  And there's disagreement, even pre Vatican II, on what exactly it means to be outside the Church for extra ecclesiam.

I'll grant the current conciliar mess requires even *more* interpretation but that's neither here nor there.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2019, 05:32:13 AM »
Frankly there are only three real possibilities that make any sense, either [1] Vatican ii can be followed faithfully along hermeneutic of continuity lines without displeasing God, or [2] there is a time and place to blatantly disobey what the pope orders decides, or [3] there is currently no pope in the Vatican.
The second possibility is correct.

So it seems to that you (to be clear I am not saying this *is* what you think), the pope is saying that he is binding us to accept V2, binding us to believe all that the synod has established, iow, to you, the pope is really saying that which he did not say - is that correct?

If so, you are only one among billions of others since V2 who believe the same thing. If so, your opinion is proven by history since V2 to be the popular opinion.

Do you see how well that worked for the enemy, how easy it was for them to get those billions of people who lost the faith to simply abandon the true faith for the new faith? Do you know of any other revolution in history that happened where the enemy took over without a drop of blood being shed? - not even 50 years later?  

In reality, the whole first quote in the OP is an audacious lie from start to finish. It is fact that like all the conciliar popes, Pope Paul VI was a Modernist and that Modernists lie, Pope St. Pius X taught us that........

"...Further, none is more skillful, none more astute than they, in the employment of a thousand noxious arts; for they double the parts of rationalist and Catholic, and this so craftily that they easily lead the unwary into error; and since audacity is their chief characteristic, there is no conclusion of any kind from which they shrink or which they do not thrust forward with pertinacity and assurance..."




Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2019, 09:48:22 AM »
How exactly are you distinguishing an order from a decision?

Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2019, 10:45:56 AM »
Saint Luke 16:31 "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead."


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Paul VI "bound" the faithful to the so-called doctrines of Vatican II
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2019, 02:18:47 PM »
How exactly are you distinguishing an order from a decision?
What is there to distinguish, he comes right out and says: "We decided..."

He tells us: "We decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful..."

We answer: "Well Holy Father, you and the council made a poor decision because much of what has been established synodally is entirely ambiguous, and that which is somewhat understandable is blatantly contrary to the Catholic faith which the Church has always taught, so regretfully, we must disagree with your decision".